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0845. Police in Portugal are investigating claims that a three year old British girl has been abducted.
By Nigel Moore
John Humphrys: A 3-year-old British girl has disappeared while she was on
a family holiday in Portugal. Our reporter, Yunus Mulla, is with me. What else can you tell us about this?
Yunus Mulla: Well, what we understand is that, errm... 3-year-old Madeleine
McCann, errr... was part of a group, which included 9 adults and 8 children, who were staying at the Mark Warner Ocean Club
summer resort, near the village of Praia da Luz, in the Algarve.
Now, the family, errr... her parents, in particular, were having dinner just a few hundred yards away and had left her
with her brother and sister in the family apartment. Errr... they were keeping check, errr... on the children, every half
hour, but, errr... at around, errr... quarter-to-ten last night, errm... her mother, errr... Kate McCann, discovered her daughter
wasn't there; the.. the window and the doors, errr... to the apartment were wide open and she immediately, errr... alerted,
errr... the police there.
Now, what we've seen so far overnight and, errr... continuing this morning is a search operation which has included,
errr... local, errr... police and, errr... local people, who are obviously extremely concerned. Errr... many of the... of
the airports and ports are on standby as well. Errr... and the family themselves are... are trying to find out this morning
what more can be done. The British Embassy, errr... over there and, errr... also the Foreign Office have confirmed that, errr...
the girl is missing and everyone's doing what they can to try and locate her whereabouts.
John Humphrys: Well, let's hope. Yunus, thank you very much. It's fourteen
minutes... thirteen minutes to nine.
Transcript of Today programme, 07
Transcript of John Humphrys interview with Professor Carolyn Hamilton of the Children's Legal Centre BBC Radio 4 Today
0845 Is it safe to leave little children alone? We speak to professor
Carolyn Hamilton of the Children's Legal Centre about the circumstances surrounding the abduction of Madeleine McCann.
07 May 2007
Thanks to Kate for transcript
John Humphrys: I suppose all parents have three reactions to what has happened
in the Algarve.The first obviously is to pray that the little
girl will be returned safe and well to her parents.The second is deep sympathy
for the parents of little Madeleine McCann, 4 days after she disappeared.The
third is to ask would wehave left a child in the same circumstances.Professor
Carolyn Hamilton is the Head of the Children's Legal Centre a charity concerned with law and policy in this area.Professor Hamilton, what does the law say, is there a legal minimum age at which we can leave children?
Carolyn Hamilton:There isn't any minimum
age in law. It's very much based on outcomes. It's based on 'are you placing a child at risk if you leave the child alone'.So parents have to weigh up all the factors and decide, is it safe to leave my child
alone for a period of time.So for instance if you left a child alone for four
hours, a small child, probably we would say 'no that's not'.But in the case of
these parents, the children were asleep.We presume perhaps they were good sleepers
they popped back every half an hour.The door was locked.The shutters were down on the windows.
JH: They weren't very far away.
CH:They weren't very far
away, at all.One would probably say that's a reasonable choice to take, that's
a reasonable risk.There are those who say you should never leave your child alone
for a minute, but perhaps that's not truly practical for any of us.And I think
it also has to be remembered that sometimes children are abducted when the parents are in the house.That you can't sit in the room with the child all day and all night.But
that's a very difficult decision to take, whether to leave a child alone or not.
: Well probably particularly on holiday I suppose in a way because
you're in a hotel you think, you know, can we leave them in the room while we nip down to the restaurant for a couple of hours
and I suppose most people would say that they would do that, depending obviously on the age of the child and whether they
are good sleepers and all that.But it is an incrediblydifficult decision
to take all the time isn't it.
:It isa difficult
decision to take but even babysitting services aren't really in the room with the child.It
isdifficult and I think it's fair to say that most people wouldleave their children alone for very short periods
of time in those circumstances.It's not an unreasonabledecision to take.It's just terribly unfortunate.
JH:But the problem is I suppose that in the end if
you do it and something goes wrong then action can be taken against you.
CH: Yes, if you could be shown to have neglected the child or abandoned the child, yes, you could
be committing a criminal offence and what the court would look at is all the factors.What
did you do to make sure that child was safe, because that's what they really looking at.Was
the child safe when you went out for a few minutes?
JH: Did you do all the reasonable things?
CH:Did you take every precaution that was reasonable?It's interesting that we have a website and 'Home Alone: Leaving Children On Their
Own' is our most downloaded piece of information.It's what people want to know
all the time. And it is a veryunclear situation.
JH:Well, I've no doubt we'll get lots of emails about
thatand again if people want to join in the conversation on that on the message board that's available at .Professor Hamilton.Thank you very much.
Professor Carolyn Hamilton is the Director
of The Children's Legal Centre, a position she has held since 1995. She is a well known child rights lawyer, who has published
widely on issues of children's rights and child law. Professor Hamilton is the Senior Legal Adviser for the Children's Commissioner
in England and the Child and Family Commissioner for the Legal Services Commission. She has acted as a consultant to UNICEF
on child protection and juvenile justice in many countries, including in Georgia, Palestine, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova,
Tajikistan and Kosovo and to the UN Crime Prevention Branch on juvenile justice, working with the Ad-Hoc Expert Group on the
Application of United Nations Standards and Norms. From 2001-2003, Professor Hamilton was appointed as Consultant on Juvenile
Justice to the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.
Madeleine McCann's parents checked on her every half-hour while she slept in her room at an Algarve resort –
yet still she was abducted. What is the law in relation to leaving children alone? Professor Carolyn Hamilton offers her legal
opinion and two Times writers give their own experiences as mothers
Professor Carolyn Hamilton
May 9, 2007
Scenario 1: You have three children under 5. You go shopping at the supermarket for 20 minutes, leaving them
asleep in their car seats with the doors unlocked to avoid their movements triggering the car alarm.
This scenario is not advisable. It is an
offence under section 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 to neglect or abandon a child under the age of 16 for whom
a parent or carer has responsibility, but the law gives no detail of what amounts to neglect or abandonment. Prosecution and/or
conviction depend largely on the circumstances. The punishment can range from a fine to ten years' imprisonment.
The court is to likely to take into account
the age and maturity of the child, for how long he or she was left alone and the arrangements to ensure his or her safety.
Here, the children might get out of the car and wander on to the road – or anybody could remove a child from the car.
If the car doors were locked the children
might be safer, but then what might happen if the children became very distressed in an enclosed space? Technically, children
should not be left alone like that until they are 16. Five minutes might be acceptable in a locked car; 20 minutes is too
have 18-month old twins. You put them down for their afternoon nap in their cots, then dash down the road to get a pint of
milk for a cup of tea. You are gone for less than ten minutes.
In this scenario, if the twins were asleep
in cots and couldn't get out, a parent might reasonably decide to leave them. If they were able to walk about – for
instance, leaving a child of 6 awake and alone at home for ten minutes – it would be more problematic. You would need
to worry not only about intruders but also about accidents; the possibility of a child burning some toast, for example, and
starting a fire.
For a child of about 12 and above, it would
depend largely on his or her maturity and factors such as whether he or she had been left at home alone before. Obviously
it would be much better to have neighbours who could check up, and doors should be locked. I would never recommend leaving
a child of any age for very long, but for children in cots, ten minutes is probably safe enough. I wouldn't say this situation
is desirable but it's better than scenarios 1 and 3.
Scenario 3:You have
three children aged 10, 8 and 6. You go out for dinner, leaving them in bed at home. You tell the eldest to ring you on your
mobile if there are any problems.
This would be a real matter for concern.
If the parents were out for dinner, they might easily be gone for a few hours. Even if this was for lunch and not for dinner
(so in the middle of the day) it would still be highly undesirable.
If they were very close by and checking
on the children often, the situation would be different – but leaving three children of that age alone for several hours
would still be extremely unadvisable, as the potential risks are simply too great unless you can come back and check on them
Even if the eldest child could be relied
on to use the phone, if the parent could not get back within 15 minutes there is a possibility that he or she might be charged
If a neighbour was there in case of emergency
it would certainly be better, but because of the length of time involved it would still be very ill-advised.
Scenario 4:You go
out for dinner in a hotel complex on holiday abroad, leaving a child aged 3 and twins aged 18 months in a locked room. You
return to check on them every half hour.
If the parents have taken all the risks
into account and decided that it is safe to leave the children, this would probably be reasonable. If the children were awake
or a bit older and able to wander around, or potentially even to open the door to an intruder, perhaps not. But asleep, with
the door locked and people constantly checking up on them, it is likely to be reasonable.
You should be checking on them very regularly.
I don't think it's any less safe in Continental Europe than it is here. Leaving children alone in this manner is not desirable,
but parents have to balance the demands of life and will probably have to consider such issues regularly.
A parent needs to ensure that children are
safe if they are left alone. Leaving them for a short while, asleep, in a locked room with regular checks is acceptable. Leaving
them for two hours, or with unlocked doors, is not.
MARY ANN SIEGHART:
Your children are 20 times more likely to be killed by lightning than to be abducted by a stranger. You are much more likely
to get five out of six numbers right in the National Lottery. Yet "It could be you" is the dread thought that all we parents
have had since hearing the news that a three-year-old girl had been snatched from her hotel room in an Algarve resort.
How should we react? How protective should
we be? The least we can do is try to match our behaviour towards our children with the real – rather than the imagined
– risks that they face.
If we were rational, we would make much
more fuss about them playing in the park and sheltering under a tree during a storm than talking to strangers. If we were
rational, we would be more worried about them dying from a wasp, bee or hornet sting than from a paedophile murder. And we
wouldn't let them anywhere near a bicycle.
In our family, we have always been pretty
robust about children's safety. Our general view is that oversheltering does them no favours.
If they never learn to cross the road as
a child, they are more likely to be run over as a teenager. If we don't teach them to be streetwise, they won't cope when
– and there has to be a when – they are out on their own. For dependent children have to grow up into independent
adults. There is no way of avoiding that. The best we can do is to prepare them for independent living. And that means gradually
increasing the amount of freedom and responsibility that we give them.
When our elder daughter was 5, we let her
walk round the block to the sweet shop. It didn't involve crossing any roads, and she knew not to walk into the street or
to get into a car with a stranger.
Unbeknown to her, my husband followed her
the first few times at a distance. She was fine, and was generally rewarded with a free sweetie from the kindly shop owner,
which allowed her to learn that other adults outside the family could be trusted to keep an eye on her, too.
By the time our children were 9 and 7 we
were letting them go for walks and bike rides (wearing cycle helmets) together in the countryside. They learnt to rely on
each other and to take note of their surroundings rather than following a parent blindly.
At 11, our elder daughter was walking to
school and back, a mile each way, every day. And last Friday our younger daughter, now 13, made it from Winchester to Norwich
on her own, a journey involving four trains and a crossing of London. All this – we hope – will encourage self-confidence
You have to make them aware of the risks
and teach them how to deal with them. Both our daughters have been on a self-defence course but, equally, neither is shy of
asking a friendly-looking adult (ideally a woman) for help if necessary.
They know that abductions happen but they
also understand that the reason why the occasional child-snatching fills so many acres of newsprint is precisely because it
is so very, very rare.
Of course we parents all worry about our
children. Yet childhood is the safest part of a person’s life and is becoming ever safer. You are least likely to be
murdered between the ages of 5 and 16, and if you are, the killer is likely to be someone you know – possibly even your
What is more, child deaths from any cause
in this country have more than halved in the past 25 years.
The world isn't getting more dangerous for
them. It's just that parents are getting more neurotic.
I am living proofthat it is perfectly safe to leave your children at home alone. From a relatively young age (7
or 8, if memory serves), my parents used to leave my brother and me in the house at night while they popped out for a bite
to eat. No harm ever came to us, principally because they always took precautions to make sure that we were fundamentally
safe (locked doors and windows, watchful neighbours, etc), but also because, thanks to their trust, I was a sensible little
You might have thought, then, that I would
be similarly disposed towards my children. But no. It anything I am even more neurotic than most about leaving them alone.
In the evenings, when they are asleep upstairs, I will not even go as far as the bottom of the garden (where I have my home
office) for fear that something might happen while I am out of earshot. If I fill up the car with petrol with them in the
back, I will drive to the front of the forecourt to pay, just so that I can keep an eye on them.
Ridiculous behaviour, of course, but I cannot
seem to help myself. In my defence, both my children are under 4: they are small, trusting and extremely accident-prone. Only
the other day I caught my daughter sitting in her Wendy house with a plastic bag "hat" on her head – this despite the
fact that all plastic bags in our house are meticulously knotted and put away safely.
But there are other reasons. First, I am
older than my parents were when they had me – much older. And the older you get, the more risk-averse you become: too
many scare stories, too many chilling news reports (and, it has to be said, a few nasty experiences of my own). They were
21 when they had me: barely out of nappies themselves. I was 36 when I had my daughter: an entirely different proposition.
If life teaches you anything, it is that not everybody is as good as they ought to be. I know we are all supposed to rail
against our risk-averse society, but when it comes to your children, it's hard.
There is another factor, too. Being left
alone in the house was scary. I never let on to my parents how scary, as I didn't want to disappoint them. But I was pretty
terrified. I would lie in bed, wide awake, listening to the strange noises of the night, analysing every squeak and rustle,
until I heard the welcome crunch of their car's tyres on the driveway – at which point I would finally succumb to sleep.
So I agree: we should not cocoon our children.
But nor, by the same token, should we assume that the process of growing up is always an easy one.
John McCann has just returned
from Portugal where his niece Madeleine was kidnapped.
By Nigel Moore
BBC: We'll speak now
to Madeleine's uncle, John McCann. Now, John - just returned from Portugal late last night - joins us from his home in
Glasgow. We're very grateful for you to, errr... to be speaking to us this morning, John. Thank you, so much. The thoughts
of everyone watching are with you and your family. What are they like, errm... Gerry and Kate, this m...? How... how are they
John McCann: Well, they've moved along since what happened last Thursday/Friday.
Errm... Obviously we were all devastated then and, you know, there was a... a feeling of helplessness but in the last few
days they've had a lot of support and they've been buoyed by that support, both in Portugal and at home, and, errm...
they're much more positive about things that can be done to get Maddie back.
BBC: Yes, what...
what were you able to do out there? Obviously, you were off... able to offer a lot of support to your brother. Are the family
JM: Errm... (laughs) I suppose that's all relative, errr... yeah, we... we get
on really well. We've got a good dynamic amongst us all and it was amazing actually to, errm... to realise how strong
the extended family is, errm... some fantastic people, like, errr... Mike and Nicky who are still out there, errm... helping
Gerry and Kate with some of the... the handling with the twins, you know, so it's... some good stuff has come out of a
very adverse situation.
BBC: Yes, I mean, and they'll need an awful lot of support because
you... you just wonder how they're able to cope with looking after the twins as well, when all this is going on and there's
so much media attention on them.
JM: You're right, it... it is very difficult and you guys
have been pretty good actually in terms of, errm... you've not been too intrusive, errr... and been very helpful at getting
people to... to rally round and support us and to get information back to the police because, at the end of the day, that's
what we need is... is leads to be followed, so that Maddie can get back to us.
BBC: What are your
thoughts, John, on how the police have handled this investigation so far? Because you'll know that in the newspapers a
lot of them this morning are calling the Portuguese police 'clueless'.
JM: I... I don't
think that's a... a useful avenue to explore. I'd rather take it forward in a different way and get people saying,
'Right, let's move on. What can we do now? What... what's the best way to tackle this now?' And I think Gerry
and Kate want us to focus like that as well, so, please, you know, let's focus on what can be done now. Any information;
let's get on with working on that.
BBC: Yes, okay, so you're quite happy and... and the
family are quite happy with the way the police are investigating this, so far?
working to the same end, you know, nobody... nobody's trying to stop us getting Maddie back. Everybody wants Maddie back
and everybody is working, as far as I could perceive out there, to... to get that wee girl back to us.
Of course. What's Maddie like? What's she like as a character? What's she like as an individual?
Errm... (laughs) She's, errr... she's a mixture of her parents. She's very bright, very quick, very energetic,
a right wee individual. Errm... My two kids love her to bits, errr... her and the twins, errm... she's so fun, errr...
she can be... she can be a bit stroppy at times, errr... but what... what interesting kid can't be? Errm... She's
a wee darling, errr... really fantastic wee girl.
Madeleine's Grandparents: She's A Diamond, 09 May 2007
Madeleine's Grandparents: She's A Diamond Sky News
May 9, 2007
The grandparents of Madeleine McCann have
been talking to Sky News about the missing toddler. Brian and Susan Healy, who are just back from Portugal, described her
as "lovely, a diamond". They gave an insight into how the family are coping.
By Nigel Moore
Healy: They’re coping as well as they can, given the circumstances. Errm... They can pull it together when
they have to but, obviously, there are times when they're... they're very distraught.
Reporter: Were you able to speak to them? Have you been able to speak to them today? Are you speaking to them on
a daily basis?
SH: I had a text message from my daughter; I haven't actually spoken to her
today. Errm... She just asked how we were and told us that she loved us, errm... and that was it really. I will speak
to her later on today.
SNR: And where... where do you think they're, errr... getting their
particular strength from? What are they drawing on at this moment?
Brian Healy: Each other.
SH: Yeah, as Brian says, they're drawing on... on strength from each other, errm... also from
all the prayers and the support; the sympathy; the kindness of people.
BH: And the twins.
SH: Errm... And... and, of course, they have twins... two-year-old twins, errm... and they have to
function at a certain level when they're with the twins, errm... so that they... they don't sense that this... this
terrible thing has happened.
SNR: How would you describe Madeleine? Obviously, as all grandparents,
I'm sure you dote on her but, errr... what words would you use to describe her character?
Madeleine is lovely. I think Kate said this about her and it was just the right thing to say; she's lovely.
She's funny, she's bright, she's got a sense of humour and she's got her own little personality; she's
SH: She loves her parents very, very much.
SNR: Can you
tell me as... as much as you know of what happened on the evening that she went missing? You've seen the location - how
much do you know about what exactly happened?
SH: I wasn't there, errm... and I don't
know that it's right for me to comment on that. I know how near the table was, errm... to the apartment, I've sat
at that table myself; you can see the apartment. Errm... And I think Kate and Gerry knew immediately that Madeleine... somebody
had broken in and taken Madeleine. There was no doubt in their mind. Madeleine would not have left the apartment of her own
accord; she's a little girl of three! There's no way she could... she could have got through shutters and a window.
Errm... But it was difficult for Kate and Gerry to actually get across to the Portuguese police what they felt had happened.
Errm... In all fairness to the Portugue...guese police, I think mistakes were made initially - possibly due to inexperience.
There's not very much crime in that part of Portugal. It was a very child-friendly complex, errm... and I think that their
support initially came from the Mark Warner people, who were excellent. Errm... I'm sure that the Portuguese police are
doing everything they can now.
McCanns Dutch friends talk about the McCanns and Madeleine
Broadcast: 14 May 2007
Transcript of the English speaking sections:
Rutter: "Yeah, the pupil runs into the iris and that's something that she'll always have and that will never, ever
change and I think this is positive, this is something that's completely unique to Madeleine and she's instantly
recognisable from her eyes."
Jennifer Walker: "To see this, to... to... the first time
I... I looked at the news and I saw Kate's face, errr... you can't imagine what a mother... errr, what a mother must
be going through."
Seija Rutter: "They're incredibly aspiring and strong
parents. They... they had about five years IVF treatment before they conceived Madeleine and they had so much strength,
they was told they'd never be able to conceive and after five years they finally had Madeleine. She
was the centre of their world... errm, they completely doted on her 100%.
Jennifer Walker: "There's a risk every time you step out
the door, I look at Dutch parents who put three kids on their bike and ride through downtown Amsterdam. Is that not a
bigger risk than the risk that Kate and Gerry took? I don't know. You know, how do I... I don't judge, you know. That's not
for me to judge. We each as a parent take... do what we feel confident in, as parents, and we have our best instincts
and our best... errm, heart at the centre of it all and I have no doubt that Kate and Gerry had this."
Seija Rutter: "I... they're not in the wrong, they're not
the people that's in the wrong. The person that has taken Madeleine away from such a loving family - they're the people
in the wrong and I don't think anybody has the right to question the judgement that they chose."
Seija Rutter: "They came over because Gerry, errr... was
working at the VU hospital doing some research - he's a cardiologist. So, that's the reason why they was over here. And,
errr... when they fell pregnant with the twins they almost, errr... miscarried the twins and they were advised
that, errr... Kate has to have complete bed rest for the rest of the pregnancy and I think at the time she was only 7
or 8 weeks pregnant, so they decided to move back to the UK so they could have support of friends and family around
Seija Rutter: "She's a very strong-willed child.
She's, errr... very witty. Always was a happy child, always was a... ehhh. Just... just bubbly and... yeah. And I...
I'd imagine right now that she's probably feeling very scared and being away from her family and... I just, yeah. I dread
to think what she's going through right now... I just... "
The family of missing girl Madeleine McCann
say there has been a good response to the appeal fund.
By Nigel Moore
Kathy Rochford: Here, in Rothley, the sea of yellow
ribbons; the mountain of soft toys behind me, grows ever larger. Now, as you say, it's been two weeks tonight that Madeleine
was taken from her parents apartment and yet still people come here today, streaming through, reading the messages
of support; some of them reduced to tears by the notes left by children. Now, among the visitors today was Madeleine's
Scottish grandmother and I spoke to her just before she flew back to Scotland and she told me that she had just spoken to
her son, Gerry, in Portugal. This is what she said about him...
Eileen McCann: Feeling a lot brighter
and better in his voice and I think us being here with the family, and the fund starting, that's uplifted him. And his
doctors from the hospital, especially Doug Skehan - who's his immediate boss - he's been just wonderful. Good uplifting
news, so that's probably made his voice a bit brighter; not as anguished, and that's what I found in him today.
Kathy Rochford: Well, that's how events here are buoying up the family in Portugal but I'm
joined now by Madeleine's great uncle, Brian Kennedy, and he's going to tell us about the fighting fund. Errm... What's
been the public's response to it, Brian?
Brian Kennedy: Well, it's been very good, so
far, but a lot of people have said they're not quite sure how they can give money, so may I tell them?
Rochford: Yes, very briefly.
Brian Kennedy: Right, very briefly, you can go into any
branch of the NatWest or The Royal Bank of Scotland and just say that you would like to make a contribution to the Madeleine
Kathy Rochford: Well, tell me, Brian, about all the people that have been coming up to you
today - just literally stuffing money in your hand.
Brian Kennedy: Yes, yes, they have. It...
it's very touching... very touching. I... I would just say this is not an appeal; the family haven't made an appeal.
We've just set up a mechanism for people who said they wanted to do something and contribute, so that the money can be
used, errr... for all sorts of reasons but probably, mainly, for legal expenditure.
And, of course, there is the video and you want that to have saturation coverage, don't you?
Kennedy: We do, it's, errr... gone out and it's very widespread already, errm... we're particularly concerned
that it should reach as many countries as possible.
Kathy Rochford: Okay, Brian, thank you very
much indeed for talking to us. As I said, you can see here all the yellow ribbons; that is a testament of what people feel
like; they really want to pay tribute to Madeleine; want to see her back home safe and well.
By Nigel Moore 16 November 2010
Brian Kennedy was appointed
as a director of Madeleine's Fund on 16 May 2007, just the day before this interview, so we must assume that he is speaking
here from a position of some authority.
During the course of the interview, he unequivocally states two things:
1) The new fund "...is not an appeal; the family haven't made an appeal", and
2) The fund
will be used "for all sorts of reasons but probably, mainly, for legal expenditure".
At that precise
time, the official Madeleine McCann website carried the following message about the newly-formed company [screenshot can be
The family of Madeleine McCann are to-day launching the Madeleine's
Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned appeal. The funds will be used to help find Madeleine McCann, support her family and bring
her abductors to justice. Any surplus funds will be used to help families and missing children in United Kingdom, Portugal
and elsewhere in similar circumstances.'
Quite clearly, and contrary to the claims of Brian Kennedy, Madeleine's
Fund is here being launched as an 'appeal', and at no point is any reference made to the McCanns' need for 'legal
expenditure', which Mr Kennedy states the fund will be "probably, mainly" used for.
"We were woken up
at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were
the words used", 14 August 2007
14 August 2007 - Susan Moyes owns an apartment two floors above the one the McCanns stayed in.
By Nigel Moore
Question: This is a story
you've followed incredibly closely because you were involved on the night; you helped the police and the family in looking
for Madeleine, didn't you?
Susan Moyes: Yes, we did and, yes, very, very concerned... concerned for the family and followed
it, every day... every day.
Q: Can you take us back to that night and... and what you were doing and when you first heard
there was a problem?
SM: Sure. We went out for a meal about 7 o'clock, down in the town, we walked back about 9 o'clock,
round past, errm... the... the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment, went out on the balcony about quarter
past nine - everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely - we then went to bed.
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends
of the McCanns to say 'a little girl' had 'been abducted'; those... those were the words used. So, we got dressed and
joined in the search, we were out until about four in the morning with, oooh… about, I don't know, thirty people...
thirty other people, maybe. The Mark Warner team were out, errm... and other guests at the Ocean Club.
Q: Now, to... to put it into perspective, we've all seen the pictures of the apartment where
the McCanns were staying. How close is yours to theirs?
SM: Directly above, errm... we are but one above. Mrs Fenn, that lives
there, was in the apartment below us and then below that was the McCanns, so directly above.
The Moyes were sat on their balcony at 9:15 PM but report nothing suspicious
Q: And, errr... you were out there for a considerable... a considerable period
SM: Yeah, we went out on the Wednesday; the day before sh..., errr... Madeleine
went missing and we were out for the month of May.
Q: Tell me about the affect all of this has had on the... the local community
SM: It was, errr... unbelievable really. Apart from the disruption from the
mass media, the helicopter - constantly circling round - and sheer disbelief really, everybody was completely, errm... well,
amazed by it. Gobsmacked, really.
Q: What... I mean, what were the local community saying to you because obviously
being out there such a time, you must have spoken to a lot of people about it? It must have been, if you like, the talk of
SM: Mmm... There was a lot of criticism of the police, which... which we
felt was unfounded, errm... at that time. And... really, a lot of... unsure about exactly what happened. How did somebody
get in? Was it the front? Was it the back? Was it left open? Was it forced? A lot of different stories...
Q: Speculation, if you like...
SM: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Q: And... we've got a copy of the newspaper here - in fact it's one of today's
newspapers - The Express and... and it's still front page news, of course. Back in the news, there...
SM: Big... big style, yeah, yeah.
Q: How do you feel when you see the pictures here in the newspapers? I mean,
have you... have you collected newspapers over the period?
SM: Oh yeah, I get the paper every day anyway but obviously followed it very
closely and I just… disbelief, no way... no way do I feel they were any way involved in it. Not at all, no.
Q: How do you feel they… they've been treated?
SM: I think, errm... initially it was very supportive. Personally, I think
probably if they'd left the Algarve maybe a month ago, errm... it... it would have been treated more favourably, I think.
Q: It's difficult to know how... how to handle that kind of situation, from
their point of view though, I suppose, isn't it?
SM: Beggar's belief... it beggar's belief, yeah, you just don't want to be
in that situation, errm... but, yeah, I can't understand this, errr... the turn of... of people's attitudes towards them,
some being really quite nasty, unfounded and... and wrong, I think.
Q: Have the newspapers got it right in terms of... of where they were that
evening, I mean, the distance from the... the restaurant to the apartment and what have you?
SM: Well, yeah, as the crow flies, errm... they're probably about right with
the 50 yards but, in actual fact, you do have to... it's walled off, in a walled area - about six foot of wall - so you have
to actually have to go through a little, errm... entrance building, out onto the road and then round to their apartment.
Q: And line of sight, is there any?
SM: Difficult... they wouldn't have had vision of the whole of their, errm...
errr... balcony, they would only have had the top of it from... from where they were sitting, because of the wall and because
of the flowers on top of the wall.
Q: How do you feel about the... the criticism of the McCann family for leaving
SM: Harsh... very, very harsh. Hand on heart, we've all done something like
that, I think, and errm... no, it's... it's just unfortunate. Just a sad, unfortunate accident.
Q: And how do you feel having been, if you like, errm... being swept along
with all of this, having been part of this story from the start, being there, at that time when it all happened, I mean, I
suspect as a family you must have talked about this over the dinner table for... for weeks and weeks and weeks?
SM: Yes... yes, we have, we have, errm... and I just can't get my head round
it at all. I can't... I can't understand it and I don't... I don't know if it'll ever be resolved, really.
Q: You're off back to... to Portugal soon, I gather, and errm... how do you
think Praia da Luz will be when you get back?
SM: Yeah, we go back in a couple of weeks, errm... and my husband has actually
said for the first time he's going to feel very differently about it, errm... I... I... no, I'm fine about, I'm fine about
it, errm... but, yeah, it’s a shame, it's kind of tainted what is a lovely... lovely spot.
Holidaymakers tell of late-night search for Madeleine, 05 May 2007
Holidaymakers tell of late-night search for Madeleine Breaking News
05/05/2007 - 15:05:45
A British couple on holiday in the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted told today how frantic staff knocked
on the doors of holidaymakers to get them involved in a search for the missing girl.
Paul Moyes, 58, who is on holiday with his wife, Susan, said: "At 11.30pm there was a knock on the door. I went out in
my dressing gown and there was a distressed gentleman there saying that a child had been abducted and could we help with the
search. Everybody got involved."
The couple said the drama unfolded after what they described as "a fabulous day" in the Praia Da Luz resort.
It was as the couple were sleeping that three-year-old Madeleine was snatched from her parents' holiday apartment below.
Mrs Moyes, 58, from Middlewich, Cheshire, told how they had returned to their apartment at around 9.15pm after an evening
"We went into the apartment, I went out on the balcony, looking over at the tapas bar, and remarked to Paul that there
were so many people in there eating and drinking – 'what a fabulous day'."
Among those dining in the tapas bar opposite their apartment were Madeleine's parents, Gerry and Kate, who were making
regular trips back to their own rooms to check on their children.
Mr Moyes said: "I felt quite shattered, to be quite frank. The people were themselves extremely sad and it was quite
sad for everybody.
"We were quite emotionally shattered, seeing the family that distressed."
He said that among those who joined the search were many off-duty police in plain clothes who had been called in to help.
Mrs Moyes said: "Walking around you would see individual men, they were police but you wouldn't know because they were
in casual clothes."
The couple said they remained on the search until 4am on Friday morning.
Mr Moyes described the resort as idyllic and safe. His wife added: "It is paradise."
Transcript of Radio 4 interview with Emilio Fernando, director of Tal & Qal, 31
Transcript of Radio 4 interview with
Emilio Fernando, director of Tal & Qal
31 August 2007
(Thanks to ReggieDunlop from the3arguidos forum for transcript)
BBC Lets talk more about that news that the parents of Madaleine McCann have launched a libel action
against a Portugese Newspaper called Tal y Qal. The McCanns called the story 'deeply hurtful' and 'completely untrue'.
McGuinness who speaks for the family read out this statement from the couple.
JMcG "The paper claimed we killed
our lovely daughter Madeleine. This is without evidence or truth. The past 120 days have been horrific for us, our family
and friends. We have tried to ignore some of the more ludicrous speculation, but we simply could not ignore T & Q's report.
We firmly believe that these sort of unfounded reports distract people from the only thing that matters – finding Madeleine."
Emilio Fernando is director of the newspaper T & Q or Tal y Qal, and is one of two people named in the McCann's law
suit. He's been speaking to PM. I asked him first whether he was worried about the law suit.
T&Q If you ask
about worry, no. I am totally confident about its support for me. I’m completely tranquil with any possible lawsuit.
I trust in my sources about that and I would like to tell something because I think the family McCann, or McCann family, are
wrong in one way. Maybe because the British newspapers – they are thinking that Tal y Qal, my newspaper, accused them
to culpable of having killed their daughter or something. NO. We NEVER accused Mr McCann or Mrs McCann. We just publish one
thing. The Portugese police believes. I repeat these words …. It’s very important for me. ….. The Portiugese
police BELIEVE the Maddy parents killed Maddy by accident. Just that.
BBC Isn't the difficulty that, on the record
the police say that's not the case and the McCanns are not, and never have been, suspects.
T&Q Of course, because
they couldn't to say another thing. Can you imagine if you are in the investigation and ….. I don’t know. You
think one person is suspect and you say "Aaaah yes, he is a suspect" .. and he can run away, maybe … I don't know. Well
it is not my problem. I trust completely, … listen, completely in my sources.
BBC Can I ask you about something
one of your journalists wrote, which was, quote, that "the hypothesis of the little girl dying from excess of drugs is not
to be pushed-aside. It remains plausible that Madeleine received a dose which the parents believed to be inoffensive and which
turned out to be fatal." What's that based on ?
T&Q Hmmm. These beliefs have been the ground of the investigation
… is the most important for them. ….. What we published is the ground of that investigation now. And we believe
completely in my sources, of course. It's not only one. And they now – the Portuguese police - believe in that theory.
Not in another one about kidnap.
BBC In order to prove your case in a court - and this comes back to the question
of evidence, doesn't it? - you are going to have to prove that police sources told you this. You can name your sources, though
can you? How can you prove that this is what they told you?
T&Q I can prove they told me that.
BBC How can they
T&Q And they know.
BBC Forgive me …. I'm not hearing
from you how, given that this is now a libel action, how you can prove that what you wrote was genuinely something that was
told to you by at least one source.
T&Q How can I prove?
T&Q The problem is
not to prove. …a-ha … Listen again. I prove and my sources said the Portuguese police believes …. If you
believe in something …. If you believe in something, and you can tell that to another person, how can that person can
prove that you believe in that?
BBC And finally, is it your belief that ultimately your story will be prooooved
to be a true reflection (interrupts), an on the record reflection, of what the Police thinks
T&Q I don’t
know. Errr, listen, they are thinking about that. If they are right or not … if they can prove or not. ….Them
problems are not Police.
BBC And did you think, when you wrote it - and when you, as you told us, didn't check
these facts, - what effect it might have on Mr and Mrs McCann.
Welcome all of our panel please. [CLAPPING] And let's have our
EVANS Jerry Evans. Has the Madeleine McCann investigation become a circus?
DYKE No I don't think so. I mean today's news I think is an enormous shock to us all, I don't know
how we cope with it. If it turned out to be true - and I sincerely hope it isn't - that somehow the parents were involved
and I don't believe it is instinctively, but if it turns out to be true then the whole of the last three months is bizarre
isn't it, it's very strange. But I don't think it's turned out to be a circus. I think the family wanted publicity across
Europe to - in their attempt to find the child and I think we all understood that and they got the publicity. If it's a totally
different story then I don't quite know how we can all manage to - to understand it at all.
MAIR Tariq Ali.
think the media coverage of this sad affair occasionally did reach the levels of a circus. And I think it was unfortunate.
But as Greg says if it now turns out that something none of us can conceive of that however accidentally or whatever one of
the couple killed the child and then tried to cover it up it will send shock waves, certainly through this country but also
through the media which gave this enormous coverage. It's difficult to believe, I mean this couple as Catholics were received
by the Pope, they got masses and masses of publicity, which many other people who lose their children never get. And so this
would be a very bizarre ending to this tale.
MAIR What aspects of the media coverage that you mentioned do
you think have been questionable?
ALI Well I just think the whole treatment of this affair, as it were sort
of celebrity politics, I did find quite disturbing and as people have mentioned some newspapers just latched on to it to sell
papers each day, I mean the latest issue of Private Eye has covers of the Daily Express for the last six months, systematically
showing how this thing was covered and that I do find sort of depressing and distasteful and I don't think any - any family
should be treated to this, whether they want it or not. [CLAPPING]
MAIR Rachel Johnson.
I do hope I'm not doing any terrible injustice to the Portuguese police but I - my immediate reaction and my continuing reaction
to this news, which immediately became front page of the Evening Standard tonight in London and all the London free sheets,
was that I can't actually conceive of a single person with a shred of humanity who for a second can countenance the possibility
that Kate and Gerry McCann had anything whatsoever to do with the disappearance of their child. And the fact that the new
evidence seems to concern a car that was rented 25 days after the girl disappeared suggests that the whole investigation and
the coverage of it became sort of unbalanced from an early start. As a Metropolitan officer explained to me on the train to
Peterborough this evening, everything went wrong in that first hour when - the police call it the golden hour. And once that
golden hour had been squandered I think we were in no man's land. And the thing that really worries me about this development
is I think back at Sally Clark and even Madeleine is found, even if we do get a result, I think the damage done to the McCann's
by the media circus, the media coverage, this development is probably irreparable.
MAIR Kelvin Mackenzie.
MACKENZIE Well I don't accept either Rachel's view or Tariq's view that the media have any role
to play in this except to report what is by any stretch of the imagination an astonishing story. Let me just tell you an aspect
of it which strikes home to me. I wrote a piece, literally three or four paragraphs long in my column, defending the McCann's
this was about eight weeks ago, I have never had such a torrent of e-mail abuse from my readers who made the following point:
they said had this been a single black mother from Brixton you would never have defended the middle - you would never have
defended them for leaving that child behind. This is very much a divided country between those that have a good word for the
McCann's and their heart goes out for them and the other half of the country who believe, quite wrongly in my view, that they
visited this on themselves. So the question - the issue that Rachel raised, which I don't accept, is that whether the McCann's
are ever charged with this or not - and let's be honest with it - this child was disappeared four months ago, there have only
been three people that have ever been suspects in this case and they're all British. So here we are - we're in another country,
2,000 miles away and they're all British that do it apparently. But the other aspect to it is that this family are never going
to recover, they have nothing to do with it, they're never going to recover - they've lost their child - they have nothing
to do with it, they will always be the McCann's. So in a way their life is ruined regardless of what happens from this day
onwards. It's an absolute tragedy. I hope to god they didn't do it because the idea that we've been led on this dance for
four months is too shocking to think about. But the idea that the media, broadcast or print, had anything to do with it is
JOHNSON I know that there are - there is an obnoxious torrent on cyber space that sort of somehow
enjoys dwelling on the moment of irresponsibility that was inherent in the fact that the child was taken or whatever happened
when the adults were having supper. But I think you're bringing in a quite unnecessary element of class warfare into this.
I don't think ...
MACKENZIE It was the readers who brought it in, not ...
JOHNSON Well you
seem - you seem to endorse their point ...
MACKENZIE I don't, I'm just reporting it.
about the chavs and the chav nots and the middle classes think that Madeleine McCann is a sort of pretty blonde emblem of
motherhood, whereas the lower classes think that she should - they should have packed her bag and put her in the suitcase,
she should have left the home because she was so derelict in her duties. I don't think that at all. It wasn't about the moment
of irresponsibility, it's about the fact that a terrible crime occurred and I don't think we can keep returning to the fact
that Maddy McCann was left for - half an hour to an hour and a half on her own and I think the people who like to do this
are really - there's something quite creepy about them.
MAIR Greg Dyke.
DYKE I think that's
right Kelvin, what you're - what you're - the people who wrote to you after your column, the split was between those who thought
that children shouldn't be left at any time at all and those like many of us, I suspect as parents who've left our kids for
half an hour or an hour, and I think a lot of people have done that, I don't think that's where we are in - nor do I think
the press have behaved badly in this, which is what ... I didn't at all. I think it is a story where the McCann's themselves
wanted to get the publicity and the McCann's have kept the story alive because they want to find their daughter. All I'm saying
is what would be horrific is to discover actually the whole thing was a con and I don't know how any of us cope with that
Madeleine's Grandad: 'It's A Farce', 07 September 2007
Madeleine's Grandad: 'It's A Farce' Sky News (This video is not available to embed - to view, enter 'Brian Healy' into Sky
News Search box)
Sep 7, 2007
Madeleine McCann's grandfather has told Sky News that he is distraught that his daughter, Madeleine's mother Kate McCann,
has been questioned as an official suspect in the four-year-old's disappearance. Brian Healy said it was 'disgusting'.
By Nigel Moore
Sky News: What do you know about what Kate is thinking, feeling about the
kind of direction that this inquiry's taking?
Brian Healy: She... well, Sue said, I think, in a couple of interviews
today, that... if Kate and Gerry were... are not involved how did the stuff... must have been planted there, whatever DNA
is there. It's just unbelievable.
SN: What you think... you think that someone may have deliberately...
BH: And the perpetrator or somebody else has put it there. I know Kate and
Gerry wouldn't harm Madeleine at all.
SN: And you think someone may have planted DNA to try and implicate them?
BH: I... yeah, I think so.
SN: Is it possible that Kate, with her medical background, might have wanted
to help Madeleine to go to sleep that night?
BH: No. Not at all.
SN: Even out of kindness, she certainly wouldn't have given... ?
BH: Not even out of kindness. I think... they may have used Calpol... like
most mothers have... nothing... it's just outrageous to even think about it. First and foremost was their kids. They wouldn't
have done that. I mean...
SN: What impact is it having, errr... Mr Healy, on... on the family generally,
particularly the way things are going in Portugal?
BH: My sister-in-law had a... collapsed the other day; it might have been
pressure, it might have been tension, I don't know. It's affected... my sister from Canada's rang today, she's so upset she
hasn't been to bed all night.
SN: How about you because you've not been well, have you?
BH: Well, I think, it's errr... I'm just horrified... anyone could even think
that my daughter would do such a thing. I know she hasn't done it... anything to harm Madeleine. Gerry the same. It's just
devastating to think that people could even think it.
SN: What's your view of the Portuguese police now and the way that the investigation
has been conducted.
BH: Well, for... for weeks and months we've been su... been very supportive
of the Portuguese police. I don't know, I just don't know. I'm not all that happy.
SN: You say for weeks you've been supportive...
BH: Well, since... since the...
SN: ...suggesting that you don't feel that way anymore.
BH: No, I'm beginning to doubt. We've... when people have tried to badmouth
the Portuguese police we've always shyed away from it. But I don't care now, you know.
SN: So, what are your views now of the Portuguese police?
BH: Well, I don't want to say too much. I'm not that happy with them, let's...
let's put it that way.
SN: You're clearly concerned about the way that...
SN: Do you feel that they will not now get the level of support that they've
had from the family thus far?
BH: Well, they've already taken 11 hours of support away by interviewing
Kate for that time. Why weren't they out looking for Madeleine or doing something? This is just a waste of time; a farce.
It would be a joke if it wasn't so disgusting.
SN: Why do you think they've taken this course?
BH: I don't know. I'll just say one thing; In Faro airport, I never saw one
poster of Madeleine. They're concerned about the tourist industry. You know, they're... Philly McCann and a... a friend of
hers were bodily escorted out of the airport one time when they went to put p... They're terrified about the... you know,
more than the little kid... terrified their tourist industry is going to be hit.
You think that they fear that all of this will affect their tourism industry?
BH: I think they just want Kate and Gerry out their country and close it
SN: Now, Kate and Gerry were planning to return this weekend, were they not?
SN: What's the latest on that?
BH: Well, I don't know... with the police investigation, I don't know. I
don't know. We'll just have to wait and see.
SN: What do you think will be going through Kate's mind now because she's
been very supportive too, publicly at least, towards the Portuguese police?
BH: Well, I don't know. I think she'll be bewildered and I think horrified
that anyone can even think that of her, you know.
SN: What would you say to her if she were with you now?
BH: I'd just hug her to death... (breaks down)
SN: Do you want a break?
BH: I'm alright, I'm alright.
SN: Are you okay?
BH: Yeah. I just want to hug her to death. She looks so unprotected over
there, you know.
SN: How do you get through that?
BH: Well, funny enough, I sleep well of a night as I'm usually... I don't
spend, errr... a hour when I don't think about Madeleine. Sometimes you go down dark roads, other times you... you know, you
tend to forget about it, it gets easier. But then something hits you and 'phummm'... like something digging in your stomach,
SN: Do you believe that Madeleine will be found?
BH: Well, according to Gerry - he's seen stuff that we haven't seen - and
there's nothing, as yet, to suggest that she's dead, so you've got to believe that she's alive. Just hope so.
SN: What is it like for you, as the father of this woman, to hear accusations
that she may have played a part in Madeleine's disappearance?
so unbelievable. So
disgusting and obscene, it's
horrible. My... my
daughter's not like that.
I... I know her. I know her.
Kate McCann: 'I will look for Madeleine for the rest of my life', 07 September 2007
John Corner - a close friend of the McCanns - says Kate McCann is stunned by the way the inquiry is going. He spoke to
BBC News 24.
By Nigel Moore
Interviewer: Errr... Good morning to you.
Jon Corner: Good morning.
I: Thanks very much for joining us this morning. I just wondered if you'd
had a chance to speak, errr... to Kate McCann, since, errr... last nights questioning or speak to any members of the family
JC: Yeah, I spoke to Kate about, errm... four o'clock this morning, errm...
she's obviously very stunned and... it was a long session with the police, errm... but I think what came across, errm... clearly
over the phone, when I was talking to her was, errm... how exasperated she is, that the mindset of the Portuguese police is
now not out there looking for a live little girl, as... as Kate absolutely believes, but the mindset is that Madeliene is
dead and, errr... and that's where the inquiry seems to be turning. So that... that is truly frustrating and exasperating
for both Kate and Gerry.
I: And from what she said to you, errr... did you... what... what impression
did you get as to how she saw the significance of being named as a formal suspect?
JC: The si... well, she didn't actually say she was named as a formal suspect,
she just actually talked about the process of the, errm... the... the police and how they were questioning her and clearly
the... the... the... the questioning is... is inward and it's not outward. It's not out looking for Madeleine in the Iberian
peninsula and I think she was hoping - or clinging to the hope - that there would be some new evidence; that there would be
a fresh lead; that we'd have some idea as to who's taken Madeleine because we firmly believe she's still alive and she's still
out there and we can find her.
I: So, having spoken to her and you obviously have followed the case very
closely, I mean, what are your sentiments on this... this turn today? I... I know it has yet to be officially confirmed that
she is being treated as a suspect but if we assume that these reports are true, what are your sentiments on that?
JC: Well, it's absurd, isn't it? I mean, anybody who knows Kate, knows that
she's, errr... an amazing mother... an amazing mother and a... to the twins but the bond... a special bond with Madeleine,
errm... it... it's just truly amazing and, you know, she said to me, errr... last time I was in Portugal: 'I will look for
Madeleine for the rest of my life' and, errm... she's prepared to... to... she... she misses Madeleine so much and she's prepared
to search for her on every level, that, to think of her as a suspect, in any way, is just truly appalling.
I: Errr... Can I just clarify, when you say that, errr... the police being
in... inward facing, do you think they're... they're now... do you think they have been treated as suspects; they are
being treated as suspects.
JC: I would think so, yeah.
I: You are... you... tell us a little more about that, I mean, in... in what
way? How has... how has that become plain to her? How has the questioning, if you like, given her that impression?
JC: Well, the questioning is about Kate and the questioning is about Gerry.
The questioning is not about or the... the, errm... the focus is not about the wider investigation and the search for Madeleine;
the ques... the questioning is about, errm... Kate and Gerry themselves and about their movements.
I: Do you mean they're now having...
JC: I think that's about as much as I can say.
I: Okay, they're now having to account very specifically for what they were
doing; when; over a long period of time.
JC: Yeah, yeah, yeah... it's... it's going over a lot of the ground that
they've gone over before.
I: Can you give us a sense... I mean, I know you're... you're godfather of
their twins, aren't you?
JC: Yes... yes.
I: Prior to this, sort of, last 24 hours, they... they were talking, errr...
to a degree, about whether they might try and leave Portugal; about what the next step would be. Did she talk to you about,
you know, how this is affecting what their plans in the long term are?
JC: Ahhh, well, that's... that's where the exasperation and frustration comes
in because we need to get over this, errm... this appalling phase of... of... of Kate being a suspect so that we can not
derail the campaign for looking for finding Madeleine. We need to look forward; keep looking for Madeleine. We've been working
very closely with the International Centre for Missing and Exploited Children, in America, and they're world leaders in this
field and they're... they're placing six months as a standard time for... for a missing child in... in Madeleine's circumstances,
errr... which means we're still in Phase One of our search for Madeleine, so it's deeply, errm... depressing and frustrating
for both Kate and Gerry that... that the Portuguese police seem to be looking inward, at the parents as suspects, instead
of looking outwards to find where Madeleine is.
I: And... and Jon, when you spoke to Kate, was it her... the impression she's
getting from... because she obviously has legal advice with her, during this questioning, errm... is... is the impression
she's getting from her lawyers... because one of the suggestions is that this step, of making her a formal suspect, under
Portuguese law, is to some degree a protection for her too. I mean, is that... does she see that, in any shape or form, as
JC: Do you know, I didn't... I didn't discuss that with her, I... I... I'm
not sure about that.
I: And what about Gerry McCann, I mean, he... he is due, we understand, to
arrive this afternoon for questioning himself. Have you had a chance to... to speak to him?
JC: Yeah, I spoke to Gerry. He's equally, errr... as frustrated. You see
Kate and Gerry are relying on the Portuguese police; they're really their only hope to find Madeleine and there's a... there's
a... an uncomfortable feeling that the police are not neccessarily looking outward for Madeleine, that they're... they're...
they're turning their attention into the parents and they know that that's a dead end and that's deeply frustrating
I: And I just w... thought, Jon, as a final thought, I mean, we've seen the
images this morning; Kate McCann arriving back at the police station... this is the... this is the 11... we understand, almost
11 hours of questioning last night... as... I don't know if you've had a chance to see these images yet but I... I just wondered,
you know, what your thoughts were, knowing that she's... she's, errm... in that situation again... once again, and now almost
certainly being made a formal suspect.
JC: Nothing can be worse than... than that... that... that first 48 hours
when Madeleine went missing and Kate and Gerry are very, very tough, resilient people; they're determined to find their daughter.
They don't want this... this current, errr... activity to actually derail that... that search and, errr... Kate is... is...
is determined, really, that she's going to keep looking for Madeleine and... and so is Gerry.
'I will look for Madeleine for the rest of my life'
Dr Martin Roberts
17 June 2009
It is interesting to read the following passage from Mark McClish's book about statement analysis, 'I Know You Are Lying':
"In their May, 1997 interview, Jon Ramsey stated that in looking for the killer, 'I have that as a sole mission for the
rest of my life.' Three years later, Patsy Ramsey affirms that the killer will never be found during their lifetime.
'Until the day we die we'll be looking for the person that murdered our daughter.' How do they know it will take that long
to find the killer? What if the killer was found tomorrow? This is a clear indication that they know who killed JonBenet and
that they will not reveal that person to us."
Madeleine Case: Psychologist believes the parents know what happened, 07 September
Madeleine Case: Psychologist believes the parents know what happened Welt Online
Dr. Christian Lüdke
By Uta Keseling 7 September 2007, 18:11 Translation by Nigel Moore
The forensic psychologist Dr. Christian Lüdke leads
a company in Essen which supports the victims of robberies, kidnappings, accidents or disasters. He
spoke with WELT ONLINE about the possible motives of the McCann couple in the tragic case of the abduction of Madeleine. WELT ONLINE: You have warned, since early on, that the behaviour of Gerry and Kate McCann indicates
their involvement in the crime. What has made you feel that way? Christian Lüdke: I have,
in recent years, cared for many parents who lost their children due to acts of violence. Most of them were under severe shock,
feeling helpless, desperate and withdrawn. Many also quarralled. They blamed themselves hugely for not having looked after
their child adequately. WELT ONLINE: It was different with the McCanns? Lüdke:
They live very differently. In public, they are harmonious. Already, after only a few days they went jogging, as if that was
a normal thing to do, always appearing together. These parents took matters into their own hands instead of leaving matters
in the hands of the police. They distanced themselves from their two other children by going on a European tour, that to me
is very strange. WELT ONLINE: Maybe it was an accident? Lüdke:
No. In such a case, after the first shock, they would have trusted the police. Both parents are doctors, in case of an accident
they would have tried to get help. It is even more unrealistic that of all people two doctors would leave 3 children alone
in a strange environment, even more at night. I have many doctors as patients. As professionals they know all that can happen
to children, and as parents they are overly protective. WELT ONLINE: What could have been the
motive to cause their own daughter's disappearance? Lüdke: There are parents who have
little or no emotional bond with a child. Often such a child is considered a burden that must be dealt with in a brutal or perverted
way. The best known is Münchhausen Syndrome by Proxy: The mother tortures the child until it is almost dead and then
calls for the police because she herself has a great desire to receive attention. WELT ONLINE:
Do you think it is possible that Madeleine's parents have killed Madeleine and together hidden her? Lüdke:
I believe both parents know what happened. WELT ONLINE: It means, the McCanns planned the death
of their daughter?
Lüdke: Yes, it is possible that they planned this a long time ago, they
must at least have played it through in their minds many times and they must have spoken about it together. Otherwise they
would now be contradicting each other. WELT ONLINE: When parents are guilty of killing their child,
do they block this fact out of their minds? Lüdke: Unlikely. Both have clear consciousness,
give interviews, travel. It is easier for them to lie than to speak the truth. One can probably exclude a psychosis. Many
things point toward a mental disorder. The children of the McCanns were conceived artificially; that can lead to problems
in parenthood. Maybe there were self esteem issues that were not openly addressed. Maybe the child had to die due to a problem
that had lasted many years. WELT ONLINE: But the McCanns seem perfect and loving parents. Lüdke: That public image can be due to a guilt mechanism, like doing a media campaign, to distract attention
away from the real problem. WELT ONLINE: Why do they not go back to Great Britain? Lüdke: That also speaks against them. When someone loses a child they want to be with their loved ones in
a secure environment. By continuing to stay at that resort, where something terrible happened, the worse that can happen to
a parent - that is, to lose a child - indicates a survival instinct. As in a mental cinema, these pictures would be constantly
running over again. That the McCanns do not return home, where they would have memories of the beautiful times spent with
their child, can be seen as an evasive action, in order to avoid having to deal with what they have done. WELT ONLINE: The world thinks it is impossible that these parents can be guilty. Lüdke:
The media have possibly been taken in by the McCanns. They very quickly attended only after them, instead of around the child.
The parents were accompanied like the Beckhams. In his Internet diary, the father writes almost daily about that and other
irrelevant/banal things, the shirt he was wearing, what the weather is like. No father in despair could do this. Statistically
70 percent of all the violence against children is caused by the parents, family members or friends. That has unfortunately,
to a large extent, not been looked into. The Portuguese police were attacked unfairly when they tried to refer in that direction.
WELT ONLINE: They have already expressed suspicions about the parents, when hardly anyone wanted
to know about it. Have you been criticized for it?
Lüdke: Yes, very severely. There were
open letters, a campaign on the Internet with professional associations. And I have done no more than look at the whole thing
as an outsider.
of Susan and Brian Healy's first televised interview - broadcast on Spanish television 22 October 2007
of Susan and Brian Healy's first televised interview - broadcast on Spanish television 22 October 2007
The Healy's gave their
first televised interview to Spanish TV channel, Antena3 on the 'SA Confidential Talk Show'
The format of the show was to play three clips and then throw them open for discussion amongst
an invited panel of four guests.
'Gerry called me. He said, errm… "There's been a disaster, it's a disaster"
and I thought there'd been a car accident.'
'But I… I've never heard Kate raise her voice, she doesn't raise her voice, and she was shouting down the phone. I think, to emphasise how important it was, errm... to the British Consul: "I want somebody
'We'll keep searching. I'm appealing to whoever's got her, have a change of heart and send her back to us.'
'Just her total presence. Of a morning she'd come in with a book, into our room, and we'd have to read her a story,
She was a doll, a little diamond.'
'Kate visualises Madeleine coming down the stairs in the house: "I can see her coming down the stairs, mum".'
'We love you Madeleine.'
Susan Healy: 'Gerry called me. He said, errm… "There's been a disaster, it's a disaster" and I thought there'd been a car accident. And it took me a while 'cause he was hysterical, errm…
it took me a while to realise. He… he just said "Madeleine's been abducted from her bed". Errm… And, I sort of
said "No, Gerry", you know, and he… he was, sort of, at pains to emphasise how important it was because, at this time,
I think they'd been looking for some time and they hadn't told us right away. They'd looked for an hour or so. She said, "She's
gone, mum, she's gone, mum", and… and I said "We'll get her back". And I was able to say this to Kate for quite a few
months, "We'll get her back, we'll get her back". And now I find it is getting harder to say that to her. Errm… I…
I believe it. We want her back, we're not going to accept that Maddie's gone from our life altogether. She's far too important
Susan Healy: 'Kate phoned me, errm… about an hour after Gerry and asked me to get in touch
with, errm… Paul Seddon, who is the priest, Father Seddon, who married her, who baptised Madeleine, errm… and
I didn't have his mobile phone so I rang a friend of Kate's and got… got him and he rang Kate right away and I think
as soon as this happened, as soon as Kate realised what had happened, it was as if, errm.. she started to ask God right away
to give her Madeleine. Errm… because Kate and Gerry were not the most devout family. We do have Catholic faith, errm…
it's… it's the religion that we were brought up in, but I would never describe myself as a devout person. We're just
ordinary people, errm… but Kate certainly has… has clung to her religion, errm.. since this happened. Possibly
she feels that, you know, it has to be a greater thing that helps us to get Madeleine back. Errm… something with more
power than… than we have.'
Susan Healy: 'The police took us to the airport and we… we flew over to
Portugal and Kate and Gerry, when we arrived
at the apartment, were hysterical. Their voices were out of control and I think it was just blind panic and fear that they
couldn't get through to the police or to anybody, errm... to make it clear that they felt Madeleine had been abducted and
they were afraid that every minute that was lost was crucial to getting Madeleine back. Errm… my daughter is very, very
placid, very even tempered, and I saw her scream that night at the Consul. Screaming
for help, for somebody to do something to... to help them to get Madeleine back.
But I… I've never heard Kate raise her voice, she doesn't raise her voice, and she was shouting down the phone, I think, to emphasise how important it was, errm... to the British Consul. "I want
somebody here now," errm… is what she was saying. But, yes, emotionally she was very up and down, errm… and that
isn't, as I say, she's a very placid… '
Brian Healy: 'Meeting Kate for the first time after Madeleine was abducted… just awful.
Worst feeling of my life.'
Searching for Madeleine - Radio 4 documentary, 24 April 2008
(Rachael Oldfield section transcribed by myself - Many thanks to 'shesaidwhat' from the3arguidos
forum for transcription of the rest of the documentary)
(music playing: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star)
(Presenter) With it’s spring
flowers in bloom, the tennis courts booked out, and holiday makers unwinding besides two swimming pools, the Ocean Club in
Praia da Luz looks much as it must have done a year ago, when two doctors from Leicestershire arrived here with their three
To one side of the main pool is the tapas restaurant where Gerry and Kate McCann sat down to dinner
with their friends on the night of May 3rd. On the other side about 50 metres away the ground floor corner apartment, where
their children, Sean, Amelie and Madeleine had been sleeping. What followed would become one of the most extraordinary stories
of recent times.
(Archive clip Kate McCann) Madeleine is a beautiful, bright, funny
and caring little girl. Please, please do not hurt her, please give our little girl back.
clip news) Today, Kate and Gerry have both been declared Arguidos with no bail conditions.
(Archive clip Gerry McCann) We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter Madeleine.
(Presenter) It sometimes feels as if we have heard everything
about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, and yet ultimately, no, nothing. But there are signs that the police investigation
are reaching a conclusion. In this programme we’ll hear insights from Portugal; an exclusive interview with Gerry McCann;
and for the very first time we will hear from Rachael Oldfield, one of the seven friends who was dining with Madeleine’s
parents on the night of her disappearance.
(Archive news clip) BBC Radio 4, the
news at 9 o’clock. Police in Portugal say a 3 year old British girl has gone missing from a holiday apartment. Madeleine
McCann from Leicester was on holiday with her family in the Algarve (fades out)
(Archive clip Kate McCann) Gerry and I would just like to express our sincere gratitude (voice breaks, becomes
tearful) and thanks to everybody, but particularly the local community here, who have offered so much support. Please continue
to pray for Madeleine. She’s lovely.
(Archive clip – Port. Police)
… related to the missing British child, Madeleine McCann (fades out)
For the Portuguese police, what had begun as a search for a missing child was, within 24 hours, being treated as a
case of abduction. But a chaotic first news conference on the Monday, four days after Madeleine’s disappearance, I put
a question to the spokesman for the enquiry, Chief Inspector Olegario de Sousa.
(Archive clip) “So how confident
are you that she’s alive?” – “It is very difficult to say, to give you an answer, because I have no
threats that are sustained that the child is alive or not.
The Chief Inspector would give no details about suspects,
witnesses, or evidence supporting the abduction theory. In Portugal, he said, detectives were bound by strict judicial secrecy
laws. So as police dog teams continued to search the area around the Ocean Club, much of the information about Madeleine’s
disappearance was coming from her family back in Britain. Gerry McCann’s sister, Trish Cameron, was one of the first
to speak publicly.
(Archive clip Trish Cameron) They last checked at half past
nine, they were all sound asleep sleeping. Windows shut. Shutters Shut. Kate went back at ten o’clock to check. The
front door was lying open. The window had been tampered with. The shutters had been jammied (sic) open, and Madeleine was
(Presenter) But even at this early
stage, there wasn’t there was signs that the Portuguese police had doubts about the families version of events. Within
three days of Madeleine’s disappearance, local newspapers were quoting unnamed police sources as saying there was no
evidence of a break-in, and that the little girl might have been taken by someone known to her.
(Archive news clips rolled in to one) (Big Ben Chimes) Police in the Algarve, looking for the missing child
Madeleine McCann are searching a villa owned by a British family// A British man has been formerly named as a suspect in the
case of the missing girl Madeleine McCann. He is believed to be Robert Murat, but his uncle insists (fade out)
(Presenter) On day 11 of the enquiry, the focus shifted
to Robert Murat, a British man living with his elderly mother living just 100 metres from where Madeleine was last seen. From
the start he denied any wrongdoing but, as an official suspect, or ‘arguido’ he was unable to discuss the case.
Outside the family villa, I spoke to Mr Murat’s mother, Jenny.
“Hi Jenny, can I just ask how Robert is?” “Desperate” “Really?
You can say what he’s doing can you?” “Nothing. What’s he doing? Pacing up and down all the time.
(exhales deeply)” “What is his state of mind?” “Well what would your state of mind be if you’d
been accused of abducting a child?!” “Which he didn’t do?” “Well of course he didn’t
do it!” “Thank you, bye” “Bye”.
(Presenter) Later, Jenny Murat would explain to me her sons alibi. That on the night that Madeleine
went missing, he had been at home, with her.
“That evening, I came back from taking the dogs for a walk, and
Robert was already there, and we had dinner and we sat and talked. Because he’d been in England until the Tuesday, and
I hadn’t really seen very much of him until that evening, and that was the first time I had really spend an evening
“and you, the suspects mother, are absolutely convinced that he didn’t leave the house that
“I know he didn’t leave the house that night!”.
(Presenter) Other witnesses would contradict that account. In their police statements,
three friends of the McCann’s said that they had met Robert Murat on the streets of Praia da Luz, in the hours after
Madeleine’s disappearance. The implication, strongly denied by Robert Murat, was that he was lying about his alibi.
of Simple Minds and celebrity please find maddie appeal clips)
To the strains of a campaign theme tune “Don’t You Forget About Me” David Beckham lead the galaxy of stars
lining up to help the McCann’s. An official ‘fund’ raised more than an million pounds in public donations.
(Archive clip of Gerry McCann) We will travel, wherever is necessary, to ensure people across
Europe recognise Madeleine’s picture and we will encourage them to come forward with any information that might lead
to Madeleine’s safe return.
(Archive news clip) The parents of the missing
4 year old girl Madeleine McCann have met the Pope in the Vatican.//The parents of Madeleine McCann have arrived in Madrid
to launch a fresh set of appeals for her return// The parents of missing girl Madeleine McCann are visiting Morocco today
as part of their campaign to find their daughter//
(Presenter) But back in Portugal
the couples travels were greeted with some bemusement. Never had a Portuguese child received attention like this. Many found
it incomprehensible that the McCann’s had left their children unattended. Alexandra Lorerdo (?) Is a Portuguese television
“Portuguese people nationwide were in shock that two adults could leave behind their your children,
unattended, that the judicial system in Portugal actually considers this as negligence, so I would say that public opinion
in Portugal, the initial reaction was certainly of emotional shock, but also somehow of mistrust. What kind of parents would
leave behind their children?”
(Archive news clip – Kate McCann) I knew
the situation we were in that night and I mean I’ve said all along I didn’t feel I was taking a risk.
(Presenter) Kate McCann was challenged on the issue on Woman’s
(Archive news clip – Kate McCann) I do feel desperately sorry I wasn’t
with Madeleine at that minute when she was taken. I’ve had so many letters and comments sent to me from other families,
and particularly other mums saying “We have done what you’ve done a hundred times over, do not blame yourself”.
(Archive news clip) “……German Radio – how do you deal with the fact
that more and more people seem to be pointing the finger at you and they seem to imply that you may have something to do with
(Presenter) The unthinkable. But
for the McCann’s, in Berlin, just over a month after Madeleine’s disappearance.
clip Gerry McCann) "I have never heard before that anyone considers us suspects in this. The Portuguese Police certainly
don’t. We were with a large group of people, and there is absolutely no way that Kate and I are involved in this abduction”.
(Presenter) At the time, many observers viewed that question in Berlin as shockingly insensitive.
But in terms of where the police were heading it was extremely close to the mark. By the time I arrived back here in Praia
da Luz in August, Portuguese detectives had been joined by a highly specialised team of British officers with sniffer dogs.
Their area of expertise? Finding dead bodies.
(sound of chainsaw)
(Presenter) They would search the villa of the suspect, Robert Murat, using cutting equipment to clear
the sprawling garden. It sounded dramatic, but after two days one of the British officers involved in the search told me they
had found nothing, and were unlikely to return. As it turned out, the discovery that would change the course of the investigation
was made not at the Murat villa, shrouded in trees behind me, but back at the Ocean Club, at the other end of the street,
about two minutes walk away. Inside the McCann’s apartment, the British dogs found miniscule traces of what appeared
to be blood, and it was later reported that they detected an odour – apparently suggesting that a dead body might have
(Archive news clip) “BBC Radio 4. The news at midnight. Police
in Portugal have acknowledged for the first time that Madeleine McCann might be dead.”
(Presenter) The police went public with their fears for Madeleine’s life, without
presenting the new evidence to the McCann’s. The couples relationship with detectives was on the point of collapse.
(Archive news clip) “There has been a significant development in the Madeleine McCann
case in the last few moments. We have just heard from the Algarve that the McCann’s spokeswoman has told the BBC that
Kate McCann will be questioned again this morning by Portuguese police and she has been told that she will be named as a suspect.
noise of wolf whistles and geering)
There were geers from some onlookers as Madeleine’s mother arrived at Portimao police station for that second day of
questioning. The family spokeswoman Justine McGuiness gave details of the accusations which detectives have put to Kate McCann.
They centred on the couples hire car.
“They believe they have evidence to show that in some way she is involved
in the death of her daughter, which of course is completely ludicrous. They have suggested that blood has been found in a
hire car that they hired 25 days after Madeleine had been taken. She was absolutely horrified. Kate is a lovely mother to
her children. She would never hurt them.”
(Presenter) Thinking back, that
day back in Portimao was chaotic and almost surreal – the main square where I’m standing now, with it’s
fountains, the café’s, the historic town hall was hosting a children’s fashion show and just yards away to my
right in the police station that looks like a rundown apartment block, Kate and Gerry McCann were being accused of causing,
and then covering up, their daughters death. In the square, the couples spokeswoman was providing regular updates to journalists
of an ongoing police interview, and back home in Britain friends and relatives of the McCann’s were saying that Madeleine’s
mother had been offered a plea bargain. Under Portuguese law, there is no formal system of plea bargains but friends insist
that Kate McCann was encouraged to make a confession and furiously refused.
Her mother, Susan Healy, hinted that evidence
might have been planted to incriminate her daughter.
(Archive clip Susan Healy) She
knows that whatever evidence the Portuguese police have she was in no way involved in Madeleine’s disappearance, and
therefore will be asking herself if there is evidence, how did it get there.
(Presenter) That suggestion is denied by the police, who would next confront Madeleine’s father.
Gerry McCann emerged from the police station in the early hours of the morning flanked by a lawyer, and another media advisor,
(Archive clip David Hughes talks to reporters) “Today, Kate
and Gerry have both been declared arguidos with no bail conditions, and no charges have been bought against them. The investigation
continues”. (reporter) “David are they still insisting on their innocence?” (David Hughes) They certainly
are. no further comment.
Nearly 36 hours after leaving the police station, the McCann’s were back home at Rothley in Leicester, but the story
pursued them with sensational claims in both the British and Portuguese media. The couple would later win more than ½ a million
pounds in libel damages from four national newspaper. The main thrust of the media fightback was to refocus attention on the
(Archive clip Jane Tanner) Well as I was walking up the road,
this man was walking across the top of the road. Probably about 10 or 15 feet, I was a reasonable distance away from them,
and that person was carrying a child I could tell it was a child, and I could see the feet, the feet and the bottom of the
pyjamas. The pyjamas had a pinky aspect to them, so you would presume a girl.
(Presenter) Jane Tanner was one of the seven friends who were dining with Kate and Gerry McCann on
the night of Madeleine’s disappearance. In November she gave an interview to the BBCs Panorama programme. She said that
about 45 minutes before the alarm was raised she had gone to check on her own children. On the way she had seen a man carrying
a child, close to the McCann’s apartment. The man has never been traced. Despite an appeal by the Portuguese police,
and the release by the McCann’s of an artists impression. Gerry McCann is in no doubt that the man abducted his daughter.
(Gerry McCann) I’m certain he took Madeleine. I'm absolutely certain because Jane gave
the description of the pyjamas that the child was wearing, which were an exact match for what Madeleine had on and Jane had
no idea what Madeleine had on. So she gave that information without knowing it. And that is what makes me convinced.
(Presenter) Behind the scenes the McCann’s contracted
Spanish private detectives, who would follow up sightings of young blonde girls as far a field as Bosnia and Mexico. The investigators
have so far been paid almost £300,000, but appear no closer to finding Madeleine. (music playing) On the police side, one
of the lead detectives was taken off the case in October, for reportedly criticising British officers. Then, in February this
year, there was a candid admission from the man in overall charge of policing in Portugal. In a radio interview Alipio Ribeiro
was asked about the decision to declare Kate and Gerry McCann arguidos. Pressed by the interviewer he admitted there had been
“a certain hastiness” on the part of the police. So, was the Director of Police in Lisbon distancing himself from
the actions of detectives? Mr Ribeiro’s comments may have reflected the lack of obvious progress on the forensic side
of the investigation. The samples from the McCann’s apartment, and hire car, had been sent for analysis at Britain’s
Forensic Science Service, or FSS.
(Archive clip Paul Hackett) Hello, good morning.
My name is Paul Hackett, I work for the Forensic Science Service, and today we are here in the Birmingham forensic laboratory.
(Presenter) Paul Hackett is a senior scientist at the FSS.
He can't discuss the detail of this case but he did make a general point that is undoubtedly relevant to the Madeleine McCann
enquiry. Mr Hackett stressed the paramount need to preserve a crime scene, from the moment a crime is committed until the
moment forensic samples are gathered.
(Paul Hackett) The less people that are attending
the scene and getting involved in the scene, the lower the risks are of introducing DNA that you don’t want to be there.
Minimising the amount of interaction with the scene, by people that are not there to recover the evidence, is a golden rule
and is in the training manual of all police offers.
In this case, the golden rule was broken. After Madeleine’s disappearance there was a gap of well over two months
before the arrival of the British dogs, during which time the McCann’s apartment was opened up, and rented out to other
holiday makers. In late November Portuguese scientists visited the FSS and just days later police sources were telling Portuguese
newspapers that the forensic results were inconclusive. (On location report – traffic noises in background) Well here
in the capital Lisbon I'm just staring up at an austere looking office block that houses the policia judiciaria, the investigating
police in this case. The building sits behind imposing wrought iron gates, which remain firmly closed to journalists. We must
have made a dozen approaches to the police for an interview. Each one was turned down. The attorney generals office, and the
ministry of justice are also refusing to talk publicly about the case. But off the record, I have managed to meet a senior
figure here in Portugal with direct involvement in the Madeleine McCann inquiry. (back in studio) That person, who had not
spoken to a British journalist before, admitted that unless Madeleine’s body were found the chances of any of the arguidos
ending up being charged with murder, or manslaughter was slim. The source insisted that all lines of inquiry remained open.
Including the original theory that Madeleine was abducted.
(Archive news clip)
“Portuguese detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are arriving in Britain today to attend new
police interviews with friends of her parents” (fades out)
my conversation with that senior figure in Portugal, all seven of the McCann’s friends have been re-interviewed by British
police officers, with detectives from the Policia Judiciaria, or ‘PJ’, present. The seven witnesses include Rachael
Oldfield, who has given her first ever interview to this programme.
(Rachael Oldfield) I was there
on the night. I spent time with Gerry and Kate during the week, you know, before the 3rd of May and afterwards.
You know, their emotions and their reactions was just agonising. It was just no way they’re involved in anything to
do with Madeleine’s disappearance.
You know, if you take the common sense approach as well and
just look at, you know, timings of how things happened and the fact that they’re both medics, there are four other medics
in the group, they would know what to do to resuscitate a child… or anyone else for that matter. Anyone with an ounce of common sense really would be able to see that they couldn’t have done it. I was
there and I know that they didn’t do it.
(Presenter) You know that there are a lot of people, possibly including the police, certainly
including a lot of bloggers who have suspicions about your group who’ve written all sorts of things about a potential
conspiracy theory. What do you say to them?
Oldfield) Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s outrageous. We’ve all felt very angry about it. We were asked to
comply with the Portuguese judicial secrecy laws, which we were made to understand that we could face two years in prison
for speaking out. So, you know, as a group we’ve not said anything from day one. And there have been all these rumours
flying around and leaks from sources close to the PJ which, you know, we haven’t been able to refute.
We would have loved
to have spoken out really and just sort of put the record straight but, you know, we were asked not to. It’s their legal
system, their legal process. We believed that the investigation would be the best way of finding Madeleine if we cooperated
with the police and, sort of, complied by their rules and regulations. So, you know, we stuck to our side of the… story.
(Presenter) And on their side?
Oldfield) Well, double standards. They leaked information and… these rumours that have flown around for the past
(Presenter) So, if the leaks stop, you think the McCanns could let bygones be bygones
and move forward?
Oldfield) Yes, absolutely. Errm, they want to find Madeleine. Presumably the Portuguese want to as well.
(Presenter) You’ve all been re-interviewed. I know you can’t talk in detail
about what you were asked but as far as you are aware nobody in the group changed any detail in any significant way?
Oldfield) No. We clearly remember the events of that night. You know, you wouldn’t forget them. And nobody changed
any sort of story because, you know, there isn’t a story to change.
(Presenter) Gerry and Kate remain suspects. What, in your opinion, needs to happen now
for the investigation to move forward?
Oldfield) It would enable the investigation to move forward, and certainly Gerry and Kate to work more closely with
the PJ, if the arguido status was lifted. Currently they don’t really have any communication with the PJ, which, when
they’re investigating the disappearance of their daughter is quite astounding.
(Presenter) Have they, to your knowledge, heard from Paulo Rebelo. He’s the man
heading the enquiry?
Oldfield) Not as far as I know, no.
(Presenter) And what do you think of that?
Oldfield) It is strange.
Rachael Oldfield is one of the three members of the group who say they spoke to the suspect, Robert Murat, on the night
of Madeleine’s disappearance, something he strongly denies. Detectives recently returned computers and clothing, previously
seized from Mr Murat. His sister Samantha says it is time he was officially cleared.
No matter what he does in his life now, everyone is going to associate him as a suspect in the Madeleine McCann case. It’s
been a year now, and our family have gone through hell, not to mention what Robert has had to go through on his own. I think
that the media should make an apology for what they’ve put him through. I think the police should lift the arguidos
status and make a statement saying they have never had any evidence to suggest that Robert had anything to do with this, and
say that to the public.
(Presenter) But it’s
not just friends and relatives of the three suspects who want their status to be reconsidered. A senior voice within the Portuguese
judicial system has told me the same thing. The President of the Portuguese Order or Lawyers, Antonio Marinho e Pinto believes
the police are using the judicial secrecy laws to conceal their lack of progress.
Marinho speaking with English translation) Right now we’ve got three arguidos, including the missing girls parents,
and we need to know why. Judicial secrecy is there to protect the effectiveness of the investigation, but it shouldn’t
be protecting the negligence of incompetence of the investigators. Here there are strong reasons to fear that judicial secrecy
is being used to conceal the fact that the police have gone down a blind alley and have no way out.
(Presenter) The frustration with judicial secrecy is shared by Gerry McCann.
When we spoke earlier this week he could barely disguise his annoyance.
I think it’s safe to say that we’re getting very little information. We haven't had any communication about what
has gone on in terms of what’s been done in the investigation.
(Presenter) And are you convinced that the police are still trying to find your daughter?
(Gerry McCann) I don’t know, because we don’t have that information. Obviously we
would like to know, we’d like to know why the files are still secret almost a year on with a change in the penal code.
We would like to know what has been done to find Madeleine. We’d like to know who has been eliminated from the enquiry
and on what grounds, and what leads are still being followed.
As we understand it, the Portuguese authorities believe that the files will currently remain closed until the middle of May,
I mean how frustrating is it for you not to know what information they have?
It’s incredibly frustrating. We’re the parents of a girl who’s missing and I don’t know who is benefiting
from the files remaining secret. Certainly not Madeleine. We’ve always said that we want to leave no stone unturned,
and to do that, we need to know which stones have already been overturned.
(Presenter) In this programme we’ve chartered the breakdown in trust between yourselves and the
police, which obviously terminated in September, but there have been very strong words on both sides since then, often played
out through the media. Assuming your arguido status is lifted, can you imagine that trust being restored?
(Gerry McCann) We want to work with the Portuguese authorities, err, we have co-operated with them since day
one and we have been completely open and transparent. We’ve told them every single bit of information that we have had
at our disposal and answered all their questions, so of course we can see a scenario by which we continue to work with them.
(Presenter) The McCann’s, and their friends, have
been given until the end of the week to decide whether they’ll return to Portugal to take part in a police reconstruction,
literally walking through their movements on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance. I asked Gerry McCann whether going
back was a risk, given that prosecutors could still pursue a charge of child neglect.
McCann) Well we talked about this early on. We were given legal advice that what we did was well within the bounds
of reasonable parenting and of course, at the time, we thought what we did was perfectly reasonable.
has proven that we made a mistake. Clearly we would never leave the children again. We are paying more for that than anyone
could possibly ever imagine, but, you know, clearly I think such a charge one has to ask why are people talking about that
now when we’re almost a year down the line and Madeleine hasn’t been found? They have no more information now
than was available to them on the 4th of May, so why are we talking about such a charge now?
(Presenter) So the McCann’s continue to campaign and
to travel, but for now Portugal remains off limits. The crime of ‘abandoning’ children carries a jail term of
up to 5 years, and the couple simply won’t risk another confrontation with the police. There is no suggestion that prosecutors
are planning to file charges. Portugal’s justice minister has said publicly that the investigation is nearing its conclusion.
For all three suspects the delay has been deeply troubling. None the less, almost a year after Madeleine McCann’s disappearance,
her parents say they still have hope.
(Gerry McCann) I think that she is probably
alive. One thing’s for certain, I’ve seen nothing to suggest that she’s dead, and I mean nothing. Absolutely
zero. And I’m sure if there was any evidence, then we would have heard about it a long time ago.
(end of programme)
Use of music
(Thanks to Eujean from the3arguidos forum for this information)
The piano music was Mozart's variations on 'Ah! Vous dirai-je, Maman'.
Here are the words of the
French song (same tune as 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star'), with the English translation.
Ah! Vous dirai-je, Maman, Ah! Let me tell you, Mother, Ce
qui cause mon tourment? What’s the cause of my torment? Papa veut que je raisonne
Papa wants me to reason Comme une grande personne; Like a grown-up; Moi,
je dis que les bonbons Me, I say that candy has Valent mieux que la raison. Greater value
than reason. Ah! Vous dirai-je, Maman, Ah! Let me tell you, Mother, Ce
qui cause mon tourment? What’s the cause of my torment? Papa veut que je retienne
Papa wants me to retain Des verbes de la langue ancienne; Verbs of the old language; Moi, je dis que les bonbons Me, I say that candy has Valent mieux que les leçons.
Greater value than lessons.
TV3 is a Catalan TV channel but it also can be seen by anyone with
Digital+ or Imagenio (TV3i). It transmits in Catalan, not in Spanish.
TV3 - 30/04/2008
16.25-18.35 El Club - includes the following: "The private detective Francisco Marco will visit us to discuss
his new book 'El control de la empresa' a handbook about business crisis management"
parts relevant to Madeleine:
Francisco Marco introduced as a 35 year old lawyer and private investigator.
Q: Do you continue to affirm categorically that Madeleine is still alive?
Affirm categorically? I have to think so categorically. If ‘one’ wants to look for a person ‘one’
has to continue thinking that that person is still alive. When ‘one’ arrives at one’s office, talks to that
person’s family, has daily meetings about the case ‘one’ has to think that the person is still alive. If
not it’s very difficult to do one’s job properly.
Q: But do you have any proof that she is still alive?
We have proof and from the beginning it has been filtered that there are ‘materials’ which indicate that she is
Q: I remember an interview you gave to La Vanguardia (a Barcelona newspaper) in which you promised to
buy (name of reporter) dinner if Madeleine hadn’t been found by April 30. That’s tomorrow.
Q: It will be difficult I suppose that by tomorrow…..
A: Very difficult.
Where is Madeleine being looked for at this point in time?
A: She has been looked for all over the world. A lot of
Maddies have appeared in many places and we have been following up all these sightings one by one and place by place, in more
than 25 to 30 countries.
Q: You say that she has been stolen (robar), not kidnapped (segrestar). What is the difference
exactly between stealing (robar) and kidnapping (segrestar)?
A: It’s just a legal difference but not exactly
between those two terms. Kidnapped (segrestar) means simply taking away someone’s freedom whereas kidnapped (raptar)
has a more sexual connotation. (Note both verbs translate as kidnapped in English)
Q: But no-one has asked for any
ransom for her.
A: Because it’s not a kidnapping for money.
Short break – Francisco Marco
reintroduced as one of the best private investigators in Europe at the present time.
How is it that the parents came to you being British themselves and this happening in Portugal?
A: That is quite understandable.
We are on the Iberian peninsula, it’s very difficult to investigate in Portugal as Portuguese legislation does not allow
investigations to take place in parallel with police investigations. There was a lot of talk of North Africa, especially at
the beginning, and they had to find someone who could coordinate all this. We are one of the biggest agencies in Europe, our
staff are bilingual and can work anywhere in the world.
Q: Did you accept their request immediately? Did you not have
to think about it?
A: Yes, a lot. The owner of our agency (female) had over 10 hours of interviews with the parents,
and once we had investigated certain documentation and were sure that the parents were not involved then we accepted the case.
Had you followed this case much during the 6 months before they came to you?
A: We had followed it like anyone else
did last summer. It was difficult not to with the coverage. I have always said that one of the problems of this case is that
the yellow press got hold of it and the whole case ‘went wild’.
Q: Have you spoken personally to the parents?
Q. And do you believe they are innocent or do you have to believe it?
A: Absolutely, absolutely
A: For many reasons that I cannot tell and also from personal conviction after speaking five minutes with the
mother and seeing how they treat their other children. But I also have a lot of documentation which indicate trails and move
the parents far away from suspicion.
Q: When you accepted the case did you set a date to resolve it?
Initially we had a contract for 6 months and just two weeks ago it was renewed for another 6 months.
talk about the Austrian case, 23 years, the possibility that Madeleine's case could go unresolved for as long and to generalise
about the disappearance of children.
Q: But what is not ‘usual’ is that
the parents of a missing child go as far as contacting the Pope and involving famous people like David Beckham etc. Do you
think this media strategy was a good idea or if you had been involved at the beginning would you have advised them not to
go down that road?
A: I probably wouldn’t have entered into such huge media coverage – it just got out
of hand. But I think it also got out of hand for the parents too…….they were in a foreign country, didn’t
speak the language, so their first reaction when their child disappeared was to contact people and the media in England. Also
there was a lack of news at that time, a lovely child had gone missing, the parents were media-attractive – maybe if
the parents had been ugly the coverage wouldn’t have been as high.
Q: You mean that if the parents had been ugly
they wouldn’t have had all this media coverage?
A: You should ask yourself that, not me.
Q: But you made
A: Yes but you are the media. It’s not the same to be showing images of a blonde lady and a child
with light-coloured eyes as showing an ugly man in Austria. After 5 minutes your viewers would tire of looking at the ugly
They then return to talk about the case in Austria and other issues, including his new book.
the end of the interview:
Q: Do you believe that in these next six months you will
find Madeleine McCann
A. I don’t believe anything about this case. It’s a strange case. To bet on a date
would mean that the British press would immediately take this up so I cannot say.
Tapas cook breaks silence about the McCanns, 03 May
Tapas cook breaks silence about the McCanns - SIC
to Joana Morais for transcription/translation)
Tapas Cook Video Translation
Journalist on Studio: And tomorrow, 3rd of May marks a year since
Madeleine McCann disappeared. There in Praia da Luz, Maria João [name of the other Journalist], good evening, is there any
ceremonial service predicted?
[Cut to journalist on location]
Here, in the Ocean Club, no, nothing is going to happen here to mark the date, just a mass that will be done tomorrow at 18:30pm
in the church of Luz. A bilingual mass which is going to mark one year since the disappearance of Maddie. In relation to the
process, there are no new developments expected for the next few days. Only in the 15th the Judge of Criminal Instruction
from Portimão’s Court is going to reassess if the process continues or not under Secrecy of Justice. It’s very
likely that the process continues like in the last year. Who broke the silence, while we're on the subject, were the Portuguese
employees from the Tapas Bar, the restaurant where the couple McCann had dinner in the night of Maddie's disappearance. Those
8 Portuguese employees didn't see their contracts renewed this year. They were obliged in the last 12 months to be silent,
forbidden to talk with journalists. Since their contracts were not renewed they decided to talk. SIC has spoken with the cook.
to medium shot of 2 people behind a tree]
Voice over Introduction: She doesn't
'show' her face but a year later and without working in the Ocean Club, Manuela decided that she wasn’t obliged to the
silence anymore. The cook [chef] who prepared a 'Robalo' [Snook fish/ Sargeant fish] with cuscus [signature dish of the Arab
world] and the pepper steak meal the McCanns had for dinner on the night Maddie disappeared was in the griller area 3
metres away from the table of the couple.
[Shot of interior of the Ocean Club, focus on the Tapas Bar]
Manuela, the cook: They had already eaten the main course, [Cut to blurry image of a woman’s
face, with a strong southern accent from Algarve], because it was already around 9:30pm when she gave the alarm.
Voice over: This former employee from the Tapas tells that immediately various colleagues
left their work posts to help the searches. Meanwhile, in the hours that followed, during most of the time the McCanns stayed
inside the apartment.
Manuela: My colleagues were indignant [angered/offended],
because they went… One of them even had his feet all red, tired… and he was offended because he went to search
though he wasn't anything related to the girl, and the parents didn't. [Cut to apartment] They stayed indoors, in the apartment.
shots around the Ocean Club, archive footage of Police and Media]
Voice Over: A year ago,
suddenly everything changed in the Ocean Club. The quiet resort, ideal for family holidays, was invaded by police and journalists.
Manuela: The Ocean Club, the Tapas turned into pandemonium [chaos]. No
one could get out, no one could get in. Even if we were married, our husbands couldn't get in, neither our friends. Everything
was surrounded… The security officers didn't know the employees. They thought the employees were journalists. In the
beginning everything was really complicated.
Voice Over: The Judiciary went
in a full scale operation to Praia da Luz. For more than a month the investigators created a kind of headquarters in one of
the apartments of the Ocean Club. All the employees from the resort were heard.
They all went in two… in two hours by two hours, two [referring to the number of people –in pairs], during sometime.
Close to a month. We were almost 200 employees.
Manuela: When the Parents would put her at the crèche,
in the babysitters, the kitchen was next to it.
Journalist on location: How
was Madeleine’s routine during those holidays? When she entered there, in the Ocean Club?
Manuela: She got in, was delivered to the babysitters. The babysitters would do a class; they would do a group
course with the girls. Between 4pm and 4:30pm they had something to eat. In the morning they had a fruit lunch [breakfast?]…
And then the parents would come to pick them up at 5 o’clock in the afternoon.
In the middle of all those children do you remember Maddie?
she entered there, she would wave goodbye, or say hello…She was really nice [lovely/polite]. She was always smiling.
Voice Over: After the disappearance of the girl, several family members of Kate and Gerry
came to the Algarve.
Manuela: I remember that the family members instead of
being worried with the family, would go to the pool, rented the tennis court, played tennis… Instead of being worried about
the child that had disappeared!
Voice Over: The majority of the employees
who were in the Tapas in the night of the Maddie’s disappearance have already left the resort.
Manuela: The contract ended and they sent us to unemployment.
All the team that was in the Tapas that night?
Manuela: All the team
that was there in that night.
Voice Over: After the disappearance of Maddie,
the McCanns stayed in the Ocean Club for 65 days more. In July they moved to a house in the outskirts, away from the
journalists eyes. It was there that they stayed until the 9 of September, the day that they went back to England.
from an interview with Francisco Moita Flores, 11
Excerpt from an interview with Francisco Moita Flores, author, criminologist and former member of the PJ, in
Thanks to 'astro' for translation
How do you read the process of the removal of Gonçalo
Gonçalo Amaral is a great policeman who did an excellent job and one day couldn't take the
pressure anymore and said some unpleasant things to the English. He shouldn't have said it but the world was not damaged because
of him saying it, either. The truth is that he understood where the investigation was being stalled, and well fed up of being
insulted, maltreated without a single voice to defend him. In fact, he should have remained silent but it is also true that
a man is not made of iron.
Can we say that, together with the novella
of little Madeleine and the removal of the coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão, we're looking
at another case of Portuguese submission to the "perfid Albion"?
I don't know. It will take somewhat
longer until we manage to understand how far this mess has reached.
you maintain your conviction that Madeleine McCann was killed in Aldeia da Luz?
I do. There are no material
conditions to opt for another solution. The mystery lies with one or two of the ten or twelve elements that used to enter
I possess little data apart from knowing the location and the positions of each one of the persons that
intervened. It is impossible for an abduction to take place under those circumstances. Only as an academical hypothesis.
In your opinion, do you think that the PJ's image was affected by this case?
Can the Portuguese [people] believe in the Police that we have?
There will be some damage to the PJ's
image that the criminal turbulence itself and the succession of solved crimes will dissolve. This, if it is confirmed that
there is no indicia and the process is archived. And of course the Portuguese can believe in their police. It has a history
of prestige and their level of effectiveness is one of the highest within Europe. It is not by one unsolved crime, among hundreds
of thousands that are solved, that the capacity of the PJ can be evaluated.
Within this process, which was often surrounded by obscure outlines, what do you think has failed?
see when the process becomes public. It is too early to make that evaluation.
Was the archiving of the process foreseeable?
I don’t know whether the process is going to
What illations can be taken out of this case, in order
for another process not to suffer the same outcome?
I don't know what the outcome is going to be but
every case is a case. There are no formulas or rules. That is why criminal investigation is a set of methods and not a science.
In what aspect did the media influence the course of the investigation into
the case of Maddie's disappearance?
The negative aspects are related to the natural pressure on the investigation.
The PJ wants evidence, the journalists want news. Those are different things. But the publicizing of the problem was positive
because it caught the attention of so many people about children’s rights, about the duties of protection towards the
What measures should be taken to diminish the abductions
of children and adolescents?
Abductions are hard to predict and to prevent. The only way to avoid them,
or at least to reduce the possibility, is to watch the children directly.
Do you consider Portugal to be a safe country?
It’s the safest country within the European