The purpose of
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Archives. As most people will appreciate GM deleted all past blogs
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Jim Bohannon /
Pat Brown Radio interview Transcript
02 Aug 2011 ( Video BY HiDeHo4 ) in
Pat Brown interview with Jim Bohannon. Video and transcript (Part
The video and transcript for the second part of this interview can
Video by HiDeHo4
interview starts at approx 0:18
Jim Bohannon: Hello there and good evening and welcome to the Jim
Bohannon show from Westwood One Radio. We find that Pat
Brown is making a return visit to talk about her latest
book; the different slide is that you may have trouble
buying it. Itís an ebook called ĎProfile of the
Disappearance of Madeleine McCanní. Recently you could buy
it from amazon.com but, er, no more. We understand that the
book is available from Barnes & Noble online, with their
initials BN.com for their Nook, enook reader. Pat Brown, er,
two stories who I guess...number one: The story of Madeleine
McCann. And number two: the story of you and er, and er
amazon. Er look, for those, letís just start at the
beginning, what is the Profile of the Disappearance of
Madeleine McCann all about, letís assume the people here
have forgotten who exactly Madeleine McCann is.
Pat Brown: Right, er, Madeleine McCann was a little three year
old girl who was on vacation with her parents, erm, Gerry
and Kate McCann and their friends, seven of them, and there
were also the brother and sister who were two years old and
er, the McCanns and friends had a habit of leaving the
children unattended in their vacation apartments while they
went over to the bar restaurant for a few hours every
evening and, the last evening, Madeleine disappeared and she
has not been seen since, itís been four years now and no one
knows what happened to Madeleine.
Jim Bohannon: now you put together er, an ebook, a profile of the
disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Before we get into all
that you have put forward, deposit about the disappearance,
what happened with Amazon?
Pat Brown: Well, what happened was... thereís a kind of
controversy going on concerning the McCanns over the four
years, er the controversy is: Did the McCanns have anything
to do with the disappearance of their daughter or was the
child abducted by some predator or child sex ring or
somebody who wanted a little child. Er, thereís two camps
over this and there are a lot of suspicious circumstances,
an abduction was never proved to have happened, so the
McCanns became suspects in Portugal, what is called
Arguidos, and then they left Portugal and since then theyíve
been looking for their daughter, they, they, they
established a fund to search for their daughter and this was
all going quite well, er but when people started speaking up
saying, you know, some of us actually think that the parents
might be involved, they were shut down because the McCanns
hired Carter Ruck, which is like the biggest libel
solicitors in, I donít...maybe the whole world, but
certainly in Britain, and they would sort of stick this law
firm on anybody who said, hey you know, I question whether
they could be involved. They sued the detective on the case
when he put his book out and got an injunction to get it off
the market and so people have stopped speaking out whether,
you know, about their opinions because theyíre afraid of
Cater Ruck, theyíre going to get sued and so the media has
no longer said anything negative about the McCanns, they
never...they question nothing any more er, and so Kate just
put out her book called ĎMadeleineí and after I read her
book I decided I would do what people wanted me to and put
out a profile of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and,
put out a theory of what I think happened based on the
evidence that exists. And I did so and about five weeks
after I put it up on Amazon it vanished and it vanished off
of amazon.com and amazon.co.uk, thatís the British one, and
of, out of Germay as well. So it vanished everywhere and
people said, what happened to your, your, your er profile,
your book? And so I wrote to Amazon and said what happened?
Whereíd it go? And they said they took it off for legal
conflicts and I said well what legal conflicts are you
talking about, and they said, well we need you to change the
title and all the contents [both laugh]
Jim Bohannon: Otherwise itís just what we were looking for
Pat Brown: Exactly and so, okay, er do you want to explain this a
little further? And then sent me the letter that said they
had been received a er letter from Carter Ruck, the
solicitors of Gerry and Kat McCann, who said I had libelled
their clients and therefore until we worked it out, the
McCanns and I, and agreed that the book was not libellous
they were no longer going to sell it. So thatís when it
disappeared off of the market
Jim Bohannon: Wow!
Pat Brown: yeah! Thatís rather interesting.
Jim Bohannon: You know, I was trying to think of another instance
of something similar to this and Iím at a loss, I er, I
donít really know of anything quite like this.
Pat Brown: Yeah, well I think this is kind of a new problem with
the sub publishing world, now I have two other books on the
market published through...the last one came through
Hyperion Voice and when I wrote that one which is called the
My Life Hunting Serial Killers and
Psychopaths, came out in 2010, I did a lot
of cases in that book and before they published it, their
lawyers went through it with a fine toothcomb, they made me
turn over all my files so that they made sure that the book
was acceptable and couldnít risk...everybody can be sued
over it... so when Amazon saw that they already had Hyperion
Voice saying itís an okay book because our lawyers have
already been through it, besides, youíre not going to get
sued, we will. But with self publishing, whereís the gate
keeper? So Amazonís like ha, you know, your not, nobodyís
looked over this book, thereís no publisher except you so
quite frankly weíre running a business and we donít want to
take a chance with Carter Ruck. So itís kinda funny people
say when Cater Ruck comes after you, youíve been ĎCarter-Rucked.í
Jim Bohannon: Interesting, so in this day and age what youíre
essentially saying is that, that as we enter this whole new
brave new world of the non ĎGate Keepersí that if youíve got
enough money and enough lawyers and a willingness to throw
your weight around that you can essentially shut down your
Pat Brown: Exactly and thatís what...thatís whatís been happening
with the McCanns, theyíve effectively shut down anybody with
an opinion that they do not like. And they donít like mine.
Jim Bohannon: I er, I must tell you that I got an email.
Pat Brown: Yes you did, Iím sure
Jim Bohannon: I did, with a dot uk address attached to it...errrr...
Pat Brown: Mmm?
Jim Bohannon: [quoting part of the email]: ď ...Please be
aware that the ebook Ms Brown is promoting is full of
misinformation, contradictions and an imagined scenario. Ms
Brown has a well known dislike of the McCanns, particularly
Kate McCann, and for the past four years has made regular
inappropriate and acidic comments about them on social
Pat Brown: Well thatís actually accurate. Sometimes you canít
disagree with people who hate you. But yes, I have blogged
for four years. I have a blog called the
Daily Profiler, itís not
very daily any more because Iím too busy but itís more a
monthly profiler now but I havenít changed the name, er but
I often talk about cases like I do when I do television, I
do commentary, and I analyse different cases and I try to
stick with: look at the evidence and hereís what Iím
thinking and I try to put it, I always say itís a theory,
this is not fact, this is theory which is what all profiling
is and it doesnít say anybodyís guilty of anything. Yes, I
have been fairly critical because from the very beginning
there was something rather peculiar about the story and of
course it starts with leaving three little children alone in
an apartment unattended, which is called child neglect, so
itís kind of hard to be nice about that in my opinion.
Jim Bohannon: Well, it, it is hard I suppose to do that ...er...among
other things this email er they claim that your book is done
in an effort to convince people that Madeleine is dead
Pat Brown: Well I...
Jim Bohannon: What are the odds? What are the odds?
Pat Brown: Well this is kinda funny because on a very sad way,
one of the reasons Kate McCann supposedly sues people is
because she says no one has the right to say Madeleine is
dead because that keeps people from looking for her, which
sounds like, you know, if youíre a mother you can sorta see
where sheís coming from. But the fact is, the chances of
Madeleine being alive Ė even if she didnít die of an
accident in the apartment which is what the police believe
and what I think the evidence lends to, er, she would likely
be dead because if she was abducted by somebody it would be
like a sex predator, a child sex predator and they usually
kill a child within an hour, and the concept that a child is
going to be targeted to go into a sex ring and be taken
around the world is not very likely, and on top of it the
McCanns put together a campaign which featured her... the
eye defect that Madeleine has... which is called a coloboma,
which is, you know which is kind of a defect in the eye, a
dark line coming out of the pupil. They put that as part of
their publicity, well you know if I were a child kidnapper
and I had this kid with this very obvious defect Iíd get rid
of the child very quickly because she could be identified so
Jim Bohannon: Very easily...
Pat Brown: If she wasnít dead, youíre going to make her dead by
Jim Bohannon: Welcome back, this is the Jim Bohannon show, weíre
talking with Pat Brown, sheís the founder of the
Pat Brown profiling agency online at patbrownprofiling.com and for
those who havenít heard your previous appearances on this and many other
programs er what is it that you do?
Pat Brown: Well er, my main job is to do criminal profiling which
I look at cold cases and I do crime reconstruction and deter...try to
determine what might have happened and thatís what the police can use as
a lead or to start looking in a certain direction, er, to try and get a
focus on a case er and of course I do a lot of television which is
commentary and not profiling, but er, I enjoy that as well as a good
Jim Bohannon: Iím wondering since er apparently a a lot of this
er this focus is, is based in Britain. We tend to think I guess of the
British is almost just quote us. Well, we have a common language and we
have two free societies but there are differences, significant
differences, and I, I understand that the libel laws maybe one area
where there are differences.
Pat Brown: Ooooh...extremely. Theyíre extremely vicious right now
in Britain which is why er thereís been a lot...pretty much a shut down
of a lot of the media, especially in this case and Iíve had a lot of
letters coming in from, from er people living in er UK and theyíre like,
please do, please speak out because we canít speak out any longer in, in
Britain, itís just not allowed and theyíre very frustrated with the fact
they donít have that freedom Ė I think thereís something recently afoot
where theyíre trying to ease up on that because theyíre getting, itís
getting to be like a totalitarian society where you canít say anything,
and while itís true we may be uncomfortable with what somebody says
about us and certainly I know because Iíve been on the receiving end of
all kinds of interesting commentary, and I, as long as itís opinion I
have to live with it, I think its peopleís right to speak with their
opinion but when you shut down a society and say you can longer say
anything that somebody doesnít like youíve got a problem.
Jim Bohannon: What do you put forward in the Profile of the
disappearance of Madeleine McCann, what er conclusions do you reach?
Pat Brown: Well erm, again itís a theory so I have to start with
Jim Bohannon: And I understand youíre not at all shy about
pointing that out, it is all theory...
Pat Brown:...I have to point that out ...and it really is er
Jim Bohannon: I mean you werenít, you werenít shy about doing it
before you [canít make this out] isnít that true?
Pat Brown: Well, the point being that it is a theory and it is my
theory, er, it doesnít mean itís a fact, it doesnít mean itís true, it
doesnít mean thatís what happened, itís a theory of what could have
happened. Er and one of the, the most important thing to be pointed out
right away is that there is no evidence of an abduction and thatís where
the whole thing started to go wrong in peopleís minds that maybe weíre
not getting a straight story here, erm, right after Madeleine went
missing er, the...Kate and Gerry called over to England, well actually
Gerry did, and he told a number of relatives that Madeleine had been
abducted and somebody had jemmied the shutters of the window,
essentially crawling in and taking Madeleine away. Well, what turned
out, there was no evidence of anybody coming in that window.
Jim Bohannon: Hmmm...
Pat Brown: And when...and Iíve always wondered you know with the
McCanns said the police did a poor job on this, they were lying about
this, but when Kate wrote her book she admitted there was no evidence of
anybody coming through that window
Jim Bohannon: Then how do they propose that the break-in
Pat Brown: Well, now kind of what they, what theyíve set up is
everyday of the week they said they locked the doors to that apartment Ė
now wouldnít you, if youíre in an apartment, in a strange country and
you have an apartment thatís on a corner, thereís a road going right
behind it and thereís a carpark behind it...I donít think youíd leave
the doors unlocked when youíre...well, itís bad enough that you leave
three children alone so most of us wouldnít do that either, but would
you leave your three children alone AND leave the doors unlocked so that
anybody could just come in?
Jim Bohannon: Donít think so
Pat Brown: We wouldnít think so, well neither did the McCanns so
for four days they locked the doors. The fifth day comes along and they
say they left the sliding door open in the back so that somebody could
go check on their child.. children when they were busy, and thatís never
been done before. So suddenly on the, the last day supposedly someone
else checks on their children.. child.. and the doorís left open. So you
have to wonder is that really what happened or was the place really
locked because if it was locked down then Madeleine was not abducted,
something happened to her in the apartment in an accident that was then
covered up. Er, so you have to have a way for her to get out of that
apartment so you have to have an open door.
Jim Bohannon: What have the authorities had to say? Obviously
they have long since investigated this adding for item.
Pat Brown: er yeah, Detective Amaral believed...he was the one
that believed strongly that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment, they
brought in dogs, er one dog identified decomposition behind the sofa,
which is where Amaral believes Madeleine died, er the other dog found
blood, these are sniffer dogs so this is not something we can see, found
blood in the same location and so Amaral believed that Madeleine had an
accident while they were out at the, at the restaurant. He believes to
this day that they were responsible for what happened to their daughter
and thatís why he wrote the book which got ... you know...they sued him
Jim Bohannon: Uhhmm...but theyíre not suing you?... yet.
Pat Brown: Not that I know of.
Jim Bohannon: Not that you know of.
Pat Brown: I have not received a cease and desist notice nor has
anybody approached me on that.
Jim Bohannon: Do you think that you have had a chip on your
shoulder er that you just had it in for err...the McCanns...
Pat Brown: For the McCanns?
Jim Bohannon: Yeah, I mean thatís the gist of this email which
was piteously dropped on me
Pat Brown: Right. Erm, I have a thing for justice. I have a thing
for the truth, and I, as a profiler Iím very bugged by things when I
say, wait a minute, somethingís fishy about this, something is
...something seems off here, it seems like the truth is not coming out.
I have spoken up very strongly in certain crimes where I believe that
weíre not getting the full story, and this was one of them, and because
of the... the McCanns had a very high profile they did a lot of media er
appearances, and every time I saw them things rang wrong again. Iím
thinking, why are you saying that? Why are you doing that? So I think if
they hadnít been in the media so much and I hadnít been so aware of what
they were saying I wouldnít have commented so often, so they made
themselves, you know, they put themselves out there and when you do Ė
just like me, Iím going to get people who have things to say about me.
Jim Bohannon: Well, erm, unfortunately I guess it sort of goes
with the nature of your work that if you donít like Pat Brown; get in
Pat Brown: Yeah, well, pretty much. Yeah.
Jim Bohannon: I mean, I mean, there, there have to be just by the
nature of what you have done er, a lot of folks who donít think kindly
Pat Brown: Well, what will happen is, is... when, when you speak
out ...when youíre outspoken and, and Iíve never been accused of not
being outspoken ....
Jim Bohannon: Thatís true
Pat Brown: Er, you know, there are some people who go on
television for example and talk about a case and theyíll be very careful
about it, well this could happen; or that could happen; maybe she did;
maybe she didnít...and you think: Well, what do you think? Well, when I
talk about a case Iím pretty blunt about what I think. Hereís what the
evidence here is and hereís what I think happened.