A number of interesting transcripts from the Nancy Grace and Larry King shows.
|The McCanns leave no cobblestone unturned in their search for Madeleine
Nancy Grace, aired 23 May 2007
NANCY GRACE CNN.com
Madeleine McCann Investigators Accused of Botching Case
Aired May 23, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. A parent`s
worst nightmare, children snatched, never seen again. Where are they? How do we find them? And how do we stop their predators?
a little girl stolen from a luxury resort while her parents had dinner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Millions have joined the search for 4-year-old Madeleine McCann, missing now for two weeks from a luxury vacation with her
family, Findmadeleine.com, set up by the McCann family to aid the search for Maddy, receiving over 65 million hits. Rewards
offered by businessmen, famous athletes and ordinary individuals total more than $5 million. Maddy vanishes from a bedroom
after her parents leave her alone with her 2-year- old twin siblings to go to dinner. Investigators focus on the area near
the resort where Maddy went missing. Police Tuesday identified 33-year-old Robert Murat as a formal suspect, but said they
did not have enough evidence to charge him. Maddy`s parents, Kate and Gerry, criticized for leaving the children alone.
GRACE: Imagine going on your family vacation. While you`re having dinner, you go back to check on the kids
and one is missing. That is just what happened to baby Maddy`s parents.
Straight out to "America`s Most Wanted" Ed
Miller. Ed, there are recent developments. What`s the latest?
ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, actually, you
know, there`s been a lot of confusion about this case. You know, way back on May 5, police said, We know who took Maddy. In
reality, weeks later, they don`t really who took Maddy. There`s been a lot of suspects who they`ve said are suspects with
a small S, not a capital S. They really don`t have a whole lot more now than when she first disappeared.
tell me the latest on the suspect, as he is being called. He`s been released. I don`t understand that.
because they simply don`t have enough on Mr. Murat. You know, Mr. Murat originally was questioned because he was -- he volunteered
in the investigation. He had volunteered to be a translator. He seemed to be asking an awful lot of questions and he seemed
to be very, very interested in the case. And that`s how they first started questioning him.
He and a girlfriend and
the girlfriend`s ex-husband also seemed to match a description of three people that police originally were looking for. But
again, there really is nothing concrete to link these three people or Mr. Murat specifically to the crime.
As a matter
of fact, some British investigators have said that Portugal police have really botched this case. They never really looked
very hard for the child in the very beginning. And as you well know, with missing children, speed is most important. You need
to get on top of it right away, and they did not.
GRACE: Well, speaking of the botched investigation -- we`re talking
about baby Maddy, her parents at a luxury resort when she goes missing from their rented room.
Out to you, Marc Klaas,
president of Beyond Missing. Take a look at just some elementary things police failed to do -- did not secure the crime scene
where the baby was kidnapped, did not issue a public appeal, did not release a suspect description, did not immediately go
house-to-house within the luxury resort, Marc, did not search streets near the hotel, did not interview all the hotel guests,
didn`t check video of vehicles leaving the resort -- there are cameras that show who comes in and leaves the resort -- did
not check motorway cams -- you know, those cameras that you often see at red lights, Marc Klaas -- did not notify border patrol
-- you can cross that border in about two hours -- until 15 hours later, and actually ignored repeated tips that came in,
MARC KLAAS, BEYONDMISSING.COM: Well, every one of those is a critical mistake, and every one of those could
have allowed the kidnapper to get away with the child. And quite frankly, it looks exactly like that is exactly what happened.
Unfortunately, Nancy, they don`t have the sophisticated protocols in other countries that we have in the United States for
the recovery of missing children. Although this is the most widely publicized case probably in history, and certainly has
the largest reward in history, it just may be too late.
But I would caution the parents never to give up hope and to
continue to look. It`s going to be very hard to secret that little girl, and it`s going to be very hard to keep that secret
either publicly or privately.
GRACE: Well, you know, interesting, Tom Shamsak, private investigator, the police there
are sinking so many resources, almost all of their resources, into this one alleged suspect. If he`s the wrong guy, they`re
screwed. Do you know what all they`ve been doing for this one suspect? Soil samples, fingerprint samples, full search of DNA,
you name it.
TOM SHAMSAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, the response was inadequate and inexcusable. The -- they`re right
now isolated on this one individual. I think that the U.K. police officers need to be allowed to have access to the file and
to start this investigation right from the beginning again. The failure to not control the crime scene, the failure to not
control the borders are really egregious mistakes. This was botched right from the get-go.
GRACE: Take a listen to
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Robert Murat in the white shirt, filmed just days ago.
He was reported to police after journalists became suspicious of his activities and his claim to be liaising between police,
Madeleine`s family and witnesses.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say they removed numerous items during their search of
Robert Murat`s home which remain part of the inquiry. Witnesses saw personal computers and mobile phones being taken. Decoding
any saved information can take time. Videocassettes were also removed for analysis. Officers also took away clothes and samples
of forensic material. It`s unclear where they are now being examined. Police say they completely searched the villa, but detectives
spent less than a full day collecting material and then allowed the family to return, leading some to question how thorough
they actually were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to you, Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted." Tell me about
the scene. What happened when baby Maddy went missing that evening?
MILLER: Well, that evening, as said before, the
parents went to dinner. And they felt they were doing the right thing because they could see -- according to them, they could
see the front door of this luxury apartment. We should explain this is not a typical hotel, this is a luxury hotel with suites.
And they were down in the restaurant and they said they could see the front door right from where they were, and all the doors
and windows were locked.
And they went back, according to them, several times to check on the children to see if they
were all right because it wasn`t just Maddy there, there was the other two, as well. And then when they finally went back,
when they finished dinner, lo and behold, the doors had been jimmied open and she was gone. The other two were there, but
she was gone.
We should point out that as awful as it may seem to realize that in foreign countries, in some foreign
countries, in particular, that blond children, little blond, angelic girls are possessions worth more than a pot of gold.
And it`s an awful thing to think about, but it is reality that police are working on that theory that this child may have
been stolen simply because of the way she looked. Somebody must have been spying on her, looking at her, stalking her to know
that she was there.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police tape still
marks the outer limits of his gardens and the driveway here, but police have been very clear they don`t have enough evidence
even to continue questioning Robert Murat, let alone arrest him. So at this stage, it is very difficult to know, really. Should
we really regard Robert Murat as a suspect, or is he, as he says, a scapegoat?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than two weeks
since she disappeared, the reality is that Madeleine could be anywhere. Her parents, of course, know this. And so the Internet
is a major tool in their campaign, a means of communication which can cross borders and reach millions of people.
MALE: Findmadeleine.com is an Internet phenomenon. In 24 hours, it`s become one of the world`s most visited Web sites, with
hits from across the globe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you haven`t been approached by Nicky Gill (ph) and her team to help
out in the Madeleine campaign yet, you probably will be soon. As best friend of Madeleine`s mum, she`s made it her mission
to keep the family in the headlines.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nicky and her friends
concentrate on sending a message of hope, and by phone to Kate herself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just so you know, it looks
great, and you know, we`ll keep it going now. This is her little place here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to
the lines. Diane in California. Hi, Diane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if the parents could be charged with child neglect or child endangerment?
Out to you, Renee Rockwell. They did leave the children alone. It was a group of eight parents, four couples. Every night,
they would go to this tapas or appetizer restaurant about 100 yards, I believe - - between 50 and 100 yards -- of the condo
that they were renting. They could see the door. They could only see one side of the condo, Renee. But they did leave the
three children alone in there. And Renee, here`s the kicker. For about $10 more a day, they could have hired a nanny or a
babysitter to stay there, Renee.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, and you know what? They didn`t want the
children around strangers. Incredible. But what are you going to do to these parents now, charge them with a crime? Their
heart is broken. Nancy, don`t discount the fact that this child could be a victim not of a sexual predator but of a human
GRACE: What do you mean by that?
ROCKWELL: Well, it doesn`t mean that somebody stole the child
to molest the child. The child could have been sold on the black market not only for a sexual slavery type of a sale, but
also maybe a person who wanted a blond-haired child, wanted this baby...
GRACE: OK, can I try to
pin you down with a yes/no? Please don`t make me answer for you. Can the parents be charged with neglect?
They could, Nancy, but I don`t see that happening.
GRACE: That could definitely happen. That`s the legal answer to
Diane in California`s question. It hasn`t happened yet, but yes, legally, they could be charged with neglect, just like every
other case you hear, Diane, many that we cover here, when bad things happen to children, when parents leave them alone, no
matter how good their intentions are.
Out to Elizabeth in Arkansas. Hi, Elizabeth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi,
Nancy. I`m a big fan of the show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of the luxury resorts in
the upscale places have cameras on the gates and in the halls and things like that. And the other thing that I wanted to know
was if they have the footage and if they`ve explored the option of the little girl getting out on her own. Because I have
a little girl, and let me tell you, if they wake up and Mommy and Daddy`s not there...
GRACE: Ed Miller, back to you.
Tell me the facts around that. I know it was heavily secured. I know that there are a lot of video cameras, but not specifically
on this condo or this rental unit. Did they come in through a window or a door?
MILLER: Well, it`s unclear because,
again, the door had been jimmied, and also the window had been jimmied open. So it`s unclear whether they came through a window,
went out through the door, or one came through the front, one came through the window. Again, it`s unclear.
absolutely right. We should make this crystal clear. This is no fleabag place. This is a very lavish resort. So this could
happen to any parent that -- anywhere, in this country or anywhere in the world, for that matter. They go on a luxury vacation.
They think they`re very safe. In reality, they`re not safe at all. And that is what happened.
There were -- to answer
the question directly, there were video cameras, not specifically at this unit but in the area, in the hallway, you know,
outside the restaurant, that sort of thing. So yes, there are video cameras. They have not been able to, apparently, isolate
one or two individuals from those cameras.
GRACE: The reality is, from my sources, Ed Miller, they haven`t even gone
through all the video yet. Hello, guys! Check the video of cars coming in and leaving the premises. The border is only about
two hours away.
Out to Ernie Allen with National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Ernie, give us some tips.
What should parents do on vacation?
ERNIE ALLEN, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: They need to pay
attention to their children. There`s a tendency to feel that you`re away from home, you`re protected, there`s plenty of security.
You need to watch your kids. You need to make sure there`s supervision for your kids. You need to check out the surroundings
and the circumstances to make sure that your kids aren`t vulnerable.
GRACE: And to you, Dr. Robi Ludwig. Question.
What do we know about people -- the profile of people that abduct children for sex assault?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST:
Well, you know, it`s a very dangerous thing. If you`re looking at pedophiles, sometimes that`s a sexual addiction. They can`t
help themselves. Although what`s not clear in this case is if it`s some type of ring, so you have some type of career criminals
that are deliberately scoping out children to sell them or to make money off them. So that`s something a little bit different
than your run-of-the-mill pedophile who`s looking actually to sexually assault a child.
GRACE: Why would parents think
it`s better to leave them alone than to hire a nanny or a babysitter provided by the hotel?
LUDWIG: Some people are
very suspicious of, you know, babysitters that are hired through hotels. They don`t know these people, and there might be
concern. They might have felt they could have done a better job just observing them without anybody in the room.
We`ll be back with the story on baby Maddy. Right now, there`s a $5 million reward. Stay with us.
Madeleine McCann's Mother Suspect, 07
Aired September 7, 2007 - 10:00 ET
NGUYEN: Do want to get you back to those shocking developments in the search for Madeleine McCann,
the British girl who vanished during a family vacation in Portugal. A family spokesman says the four-year-old's mom is now
named a suspect.
CNN's Paula Hancocks joins us now from Portimao with the latest on this case.
And a lot of
people waking up thinking what has happened in this search for the person who was involved in this. And now all fingers are
pointing at the mother. Very interesting, Paula.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Betty. Yes, Kate
McCann has been inside the police station for the past four hours this Friday. Now she was here for 11 hours for questioning
on Thursday, but that was as a witness. The difference now is she is a formal suspect, according to the Portuguese police.
They believe that they have enough evidence, enough forensic evidence, to be able to consider her a suspect and involved,
possibly in some way, in the disappearance of her four-year-old daughter Madeleine.
Now we are also expecting at some
point this afternoon -- we were expect it an hour ago -- the arrival of Gerry McCann, the husband. He also is coming in to
undergo some questioning. At this point we believe he will be questioned as a witness. But certainly a surprising turnaround
We also know from the spokesperson for the McCann family, they were talking to us earlier, saying that
part of the reason they believe that they decided to treat Kate McCann as a suspect is because they found blood in the rental
car that her and Gerry McCann had rented. But, bizarrely, they had rented it 25 days after Madeleine had been declared missing.
Now also hearing from the lawyer for the family. He is telling us that she may well be charged this evening -- that's
Friday evening -- and may well be held in custody until that time. And also he said that there were more blood samples found
on a piece of clothing that Kate McCann had given to the police about a month ago.
So this is what the evidence that
the Portuguese police have. We're hearing nothing from them themselves. This is all coming from the family and their representatives.
But at this point they believe they have enough to keep her in as a suspect.
NGUYEN: OK, Paula, just so that we can
clarify just a little bit in this case as these developments are coming out, the mother is a suspect now, but both the mother
and the father rented this vehicle, but at this point the father has not been named a suspect.
HANCOCKS: That's right.
It's not entirely clear whose name this vehicle was in, but certainly it was said to us by the spokesperson that it was rented
by the McCann family by the McCanns, meaning the parents. But we know that Kate McCann was here for 11 hours yesterday for
this questioning as a witness. Now Gerry McCann is supposed to be on his way for his questioning as a witness as well. And
at this point we have no indications.
The spokesperson said it is possible that he also could be a suspect, but didn't
really want to go into that because she just didn't know. She said at this point it's just Kate McCann who is formally a suspect.
Which, for her, it could actually be a protection legally because it means that the questions that the police now ask her,
she's not legally obliged to answer them. Yesterday she was legally obliged to answer for 11 hours. Today for four hours she
can remain silent.
NGUYEN: All right. CNN's Paula Hancocks joining us live with the latest in this story. And, of
course, we'll be following it very closely. Thank you.
HARRIS: John Corner joins us now. He is a friend to the McCanns
and the godfather to their twins.
John, good to talk to you.
What is your reaction to the news that Kate McCann
is now a suspect in the disappearance of Maddie?
JOHN CORNER, FRIEND OF MCCANNS: Well, I'm appalled, but I'm also frustrated.
You know, I've worked very, very hard with Kate and Gerry in the campaign to find our missing child and our missing Madeleine.
And what we're worried about truly is that this investigation or this new line that the Portuguese police have taken is going
to derail those real efforts.
You know, we were in Spain only a few weeks ago and dropping posters in different towns
in Spain. And what we were amazed that is 50 percent of the people that we were approaching had never heard of Madeleine.
And that's what we're up against right at street level of getting those posters out. And that advice had come to us from the
U.S. The International Center for Missing and Exploited Children have been marvelous in their support and guidance and direction.
They're the world experts. And they're saying to us, you know, six months in an average time. So hang on in there. Keep looking
for Madeleine. And now this.
HARRIS: Well, John, I'm trying to understand here, Kate is now an official formal suspect.
You believe she had nothing to do with this disappearance?
CORNER: Absolutely. Absolutely.
HARRIS: So why
do you think she's a suspect? And have you heard -- you certainly are aware of the new evidence that seems to be pointing,
at least the authorities, in her direction?
CORNER: Well, you know, whenever Kate and Gerry hear that there's new
evidence or new technological evidence, it gives them hope because they think the Portuguese police are going to have a new
breakthrough, it's going to lead us to whoever's abducted Madeleine. It's going to allow us to get her back home safely. And
I think it's truly frustrating and exasperating. It's just dreadful that the mind set of the police is quite the opposite,
that they're actually looking into the parents and not looking out, not doing the search, not doing the intensive work that
we really need . . .
HARRIS: You would have been surprised -- John, you would have been surprised if the authorities
hadn't looked at the parents, wouldn't you?
CORNER: Well, you know, Kate and Gerry were interviewed at some length
in that first few days. Interviewed extensively. And that's good -- that due diligence, that's good practice. You know, all
police forces do that. You look, you interview the parents, you clear them and you move on and we get out there and find Madeleine.
And for us to come full circle after four months is just dreadful. It's (INAUDIBLE).
HARRIS: Well, how do you explain
the apparent break-through in the case? You mentioned a break-through a moment ago. Well, there has been a break-through in
the case, according to the authorities. How do you explain the blood in the rental car? A car rented more than 20 days after
Maddie was reported missing? How do you explain it?
CORNER: It defies explanation, quite frankly. I have no idea.
It flies in the face of common sense. I could speculate all day about that, but . . .
HARRIS: Well wait a minute, John. I mean this is DNA evidence. This is DNA found in a rental car
that was rented by the couple 20 days -- I'm just asking you, how do you explain it?
CORNER: It makes -- I can't explain
it. It makes no sense. It makes no sense.
HARRIS: Do you or do you not . . .
CORNER: I just know that . . .
Do you not trust what the authorities are saying to you? Have you talked to Gerry or Kate about the new evidence?
No, I haven't. Not about new evidence. Only about the police line of questioning last night. And, quite frankly, it makes
no sense to me and I can't speculate on it. You know, it just -- it makes no sense at all.
HARRIS: So the authorities
come back, let me just try this on you. The authorities come back to Kate and to Gerry because the question lingers, who leaves
a three-year-old to watch two-year-old twins. Who does that?
CORNER: Well, you have to understand the situation. I
think the only thing that Kate and Gerry are guilty of is a little bit of complacency. It's a very, very sleepy town. Well,
it certainly was before the media . . .
HARRIS: Complacency? How about neglect?
CORNER: There has been police
force (ph) . . .
HARRIS: How about neglect? How about child endangerment?
CORNER: Well, I disagree with that.
I disagree with that. And if you talk to the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children, they disagree with that,
HARRIS: So as a general practice, it's OK with you, in your mind and the way you think for a three-year-old to
be left to care for two- year-old twins?
CORNER: I'm not sure that's productive at this stage to talk about that.
I mean, I've been to (INAUDIBLE). I've looked at it very carefully myself. And it literally was like sitting in your garden.
That's how far away the apartment was.
HARRIS: OK. John Corner is a friend of the McCanns and, John, some tough questions
to ask you, but we appreciate you stepping up to take those questions on for us.
it. Thank you.
Nancy Grace, Aired 07 September 2007
NANCY GRACE CNN.com
4-Year-Old`s Parents Named as Suspects in Portugal Disappearance
Aired September 7, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 3-year-old (SIC) little girl snatched during a
luxury resort vacation while her parents party 100 yards away at a dinner party. Tonight, stunning evidence emerges. After
a global campaign to find baby Maddy, millions of dollars raised for reward money, even a private meeting with the pope in
Rome, in the last hours, police name Maddy`s own mother a suspect. And just minutes ago, the father also named, the police
claim the baby`s blood discovered in the car rented by Maddy`s family a full 25 days after Maddy is reported kidnapped. Police
hone in on Maddy`s parents, conducting nearly 20 hours of intense questioning. Is a plea deal on the table? Are police pressing
Maddy`s parents to confess?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gerry McCann, the father of Madeleine McCann, is now a
formal suspect in the disappearance of his daughter. That`s along with his wife, Kate McCann. We heard of the news that Kate
was a formal suspect in this case earlier on, on Friday. But a short time ago, her husband emerged after hours of questioning
in the local police station in Portmao, and it emerged then in a statement that he, too, is now a formal suspect in the disappearance
of their 4-year-old daughter, Madeleine, who went missing on the 3rd of May and has not been seen since.
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First, breaking
news, a 3-year-old girl reportedly snatched from a luxury resort vacation, tonight police name baby Maddy`s mom and dad, as
we go to air, suspects.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Portuguese police on this day formally announcing
that the two parents are now suspects, formal suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.
A family member says Madeleine McCann`s mom may have been offered a plea deal in return for admitting she killed her own daughter.
FEMALE: ... tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer,
which was, If you say that you killed Madeleine by accident and then hid her and then disposed of the body, then we can guarantee
you a two-year jail sentence or even less. You may get off because people feel sorry for you it was an accident.
FEMALE: Madeleine, of course, vanished during a family vacation in Portugal. It`s been four months now since that happened.
The apparent new break in the case comes after Madeleine`s blood in a car that her parents rented 25 days after the little
girl was reported missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to Portmao, Portugal. Joining us tonight,
Paula Hancocks, CNN correspondent. As we go to air, we learn the father now joins his wife as a police suspect in the disappearance
of baby Maddy. Paula, thank you for being with us. What`s the latest?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes,
just in the last half hour or so, we heard that Gerry was going to join his wife, Kate, as chief suspects. And it really just
shows exactly what can happen in a day so much. Twenty-four hours ago, these were two parents who had lost their daughter,
they thought. They had the sympathy of millions. They had millions of dollars coming into a fund. They had a Web site with
blogs. They were meeting the pope. And now, just 24 hours later, the Portuguese police have decided that they are two formal
Now, they can`t leave the country. They have to come back and talk to the police on a number of occasions
now. And it`s just amazing what can change in 24 hours in a case like this.
GRACE: Paula, it really is. Now, if this
were any other police force, Paul Hancocks, I`d be down with it. But remember, they also named Robert Murat (ph) a suspect,
questioned him for hours upon hours upon hours. Remember, he lived nearby that luxury resort where baby Maddy was stolen.
Now we haven`t heard another word about him. And now they say they found blood in the car 25 days after baby Maddy went missing?
What has led up to this twist, this bizarre twist tonight, Paula?
HANCOCKS: Well, (INAUDIBLE) Nancy, we`re not actually
hearing that much from the Portuguese police. All of this is secondhand from the McCann family, spokesperson for the McCann
family lawyers. They`re saying that, yes, they did find these traces of blood 24 hours -- 24 days after -- this car was actually
rented 24 -- 25 days after the disappearance. And this is just very confusing for everybody. People are speculating on what
that could mean. The Portuguese media has certainly cooled towards the McCanns over the past couple of months, so they`re
speculating more than most. But even the British media, which is known for being quite rampant (ph) in taking no -- pulling
no punches, that`s started to also question what exactly happened that night.
GRACE: Well, another issue -- out to
Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." Didn`t police -- wasn`t it leaked at some juncture that baby Maddy`s blood had
been found inside that luxury condo they were renting?
Everyone, the reason this is happening in Portugal is because
the parents had taken baby Maddy and her two little twin siblings on a luxury vacation there in Portugal, and baby Maddy allegedly
went missing. The parents were about 100 yards away, the size of a football field, having a dinner party, leaving their three
children alone back in this luxury condo.
Jon Leiberman, whatever happened to the theory that was leaked that baby
Maddy`s blood was in that condo? Right or wrong?
JON LEIBERMAN, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, police say that they
did find blood inside of that condo. They tell us tonight that they do have DNA back, but they won`t tell us if that DNA is
Maddy`s blood inside of the apartment.
My problem with it, Nancy, is the Portuguese police have bungled this thing
from the beginning. They didn`t even find that blood until two-and- a-half months after Madeleine went missing. They didn`t
know that there had been a rash of break-ins in villas around where Madeleine went missing for three months after she went
missing. And they didn`t question hardly any potential witnesses or people that lived around that area for days and days after
Madeleine went missing.
So why should we now believe the Portuguese police? If they had the goods on Gerry and Kate,
then why not charge them with the crime?
GRACE: I want to go to an esteemed expert in his field. You all know Dr. Joshua
Perper, medical examiner and author. Dr. Perper, yes, it has taken police a long time to find this evidence, if the evidence
is accurate. But blood on a wall or on the interior of a car doesn`t just disappear in time, it can be found years later and
still reveal accurate DNA results. Yes or no?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes. Yes.
You can make this kind of analysis months and sometimes years, unless the area is cleaned or wiped.
GRACE: So back
to Paula Hancocks, CNN correspondent covering the story. She`s there, joining us at Portmao, Portugal. Paula, we have alleged
blood from baby Maddy in the condo. Police didn`t claim the parents were suspects then. It seems as if this is all turned
on finding blood in that rental car. Tell me what you know about this rental car? And how many hours have the mom and dad
been under questioning by Portuguese police?
HANCOCKS: Well, your second question first, Nancy -- 11 yesterday for
Kate McCann, another 5 hours today. And for her husband, he`s been spending about 8 hours before he came out and had to let
his lawyer admit that he is now a proper suspect, as opposed to just a witness.
The fact is, this all happened about
48 hours ago, a little bit more than that, when we got some DNA results from that condo from the British laboratory. And there
was something in that -- they`re not telling us what, but there must have been something in that made the Portuguese think,
We want to interview both Kate and Gerry, but we don`t want to interview them together, we`ll interview them separately. And
at the end of both those interviews, they then say that they are suspects. So there`s something within those DNA results.
That`s the speculation here.
GRACE: To Bill Majeski, former NYPD detective. He`s with the Safenowproject. Bill, welcome
to the show. Thank you for being with us. It is not unusual at all -- in fact, it`s SOP, standard operating procedure -- to
split up the parents and question them separately, is it not.
BILL MAJESKI, SAFENOWPROJECT: Absolutely correct. You
know, why give them an opportunity to say the same thing while they`re in the same room together. You know, there are a couple
of issues here with that car and the finding of the blood in it. There had to be a reason why the Portuguese police searched
the car to begin with. It was rented 25 days after the child disappeared, so they clearly had suspicions. Now, maybe they
were being surveilled. Maybe they brought something from the apartment into the car. That then caused the Portuguese police
to start searching the car, and they did find some kind of trace evidence of blood in the car, probably from something that
was brought out of the apartment. What that is, we don`t know.
But we also know that when Portuguese police name someone
as a suspect, they then tell the suspect the evidence that they have against them. So clearly, you know, both parents here,
they can come forward and say, OK, we`re being accused because, and give the evidence that the Portuguese police should be
telling them that they have against them. The police, on the other hand, are keeping things close to the vest, as they should.
I want to go out to the lawyers. Let`s unleash them. Joining us, Susan Moss out of New York, Daniel Horowitz, defense attorney
out of San Francisco, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney out of Atlanta.
Here`s the kicker, Daniel Horowitz. Being named
a suspect in Portugal is not the same thing as being named a suspect here in the U.S. Explain.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE
ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, a lot of these foreign jurisdictions, foreign to us, have an investigative type of system. Just like
with the Natalee Holloway case, they arrest people, hold them. They have judges supervising what goes on. And they really
grill suspects much more vigorously than we do. But on the other hand, they do not have the forensics or the professionalism
of U.S. police forces.
GRACE: And that brings up an interesting point. And I want to go to a guest before I go to the
other lawyers, Susan and Renee. Joining us now is Philomena "Phil" McCann. This is Madeleine McCann`s aunt. Philomena, thank
you for being with us. Maddy went missing on May the 3rd, and today, almost five months later, they -- police find that they
have found blood evidence. Why five months later? Do you find that unusual, Philomena?
PHILOMENA MCCANN, MADELEINE`S
AUNT: Well, I find it incredible, actually. They`re not actually saying it`s blood, they`re saying it`s bloody (ph) fluid.
Oh, inside the car?
GRACE: Bodily fluids inside the car. Philomena, do you believe that it`s
true that police are trying to get a plea deal out of baby Maddy`s mother in exchange for a confession of some sort?
Yes. Kate told me that was the case.
GRACE: And what is her response?
MCCANN: Well, it`s actually unsayable
(ph), but in effect, she told them to get stuffed.
GRACE: Ms. McCann is with us. This is Maddy McCann`s aunt. She`s
joining us by phone from Scotland. Philomena, she must have been shocked when police named her as a suspect.
Well, in some ways, she was, but she knew in advance before she went because they were informed on Monday night in the house.
The police had sent someone out to speak to them to advise them of this and to make them aware of their rights, that their
change in status would allow them to have legal representation and that they could now refuse to answer questions in case
they would incriminate themselves.
GRACE: Yes. With us is baby Maddy`s aunt, Philomena McCann. Do they have lawyers
with them, Philomena?
MCCANN: They have a lawyer. They have a Portuguese lawyer with them.
GRACE: Are they answering
the questions? I understand Portuguese police told them they had 22 questions that they wanted to ask them. I don`t know,
11 is a long time for 22 questions. But are they answering the questions?
MCCANN: As far as I`m aware (INAUDIBLE) Gerry
(INAUDIBLE) tried in every aspect to accommodate the police and be helpful. Kate said that she just, you know, made (INAUDIBLE)
because she felt the questions were (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: I want to go out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. Pat, weigh
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, obviously, there`s something there. I mean, this -- all the things the police
are doing now, admittedly, they should have done right up front. They should have separated the parents in the beginning,
along with their friends, got the different stories, got their alibis, got their timeline to make sure that there was nothing
strange or that there wasn`t time for them to do something and move Madeleine`s body by putting her in the boot of the car
and then later on taking her someplace. They should have done that right then. But they maybe didn`t because they didn`t suspect
I can`t blame them for doing it now, if they`ve found evidence. And if they have found evidence in that rental
car, that`s a hard thing to explain away. And I believe that they only went there because they got some other information
that was very concerning, as well.
GRACE: Pat Brown, what do you believe the police theory is?
my guess is they believe something happened earlier that evening, before they met and -- something tragic. Either the child
was overdosed with some kind of medication because they wanted the children to sleep so they could go party. And then maybe
they put the child in the boot of the car while they went and played sort of, Hi, hey, we`re here and everything`s OK, and
then they went back to check and -- the police wouldn`t even look in the boot of their car if they`re looking for a stranger
So then later on, at some point in time when they`re not being watched, the child could be moved. Dad could
say, Hey, I got to go search for my child. He could jump in the car, take off for hours and no one would pay attention to
that, come back, and then they move on. I think that might be the theory. I don`t know that, but that`s what I`m guessing.
Out to the lines. Dana in Illinois. Hi, Dana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am just wondering, if -- this is very premature, but if they are taken to trial
and found guilty, can they be -- the parents be held accountable for all of the money that has been spent on the search?
I would say definitely so, but let`s go to Larry Sutton, editor at "People" magazine. Larry, they have raised tons of money
and reward money, haven`t they?
LARRY SUTTON, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Indeed, they have. But the good news, if there is
good news here, is a lot of that money is going to broader agencies that are looking for missing children everywhere. It wasn`t
totally focused on just this one little girl.
GRACE: Larry, were you surprised when you heard the mom and now the dad
named as suspects?
SUTTON: Well, I was surprised when I heard the mom, but I figured the dad was going to come 15 minutes
after that because you can`t have one without the other. Yes, it is suspicious. It is surprising. But you know, there were
no other suspects. And look at the -- who the police interviewed when the case first started back in May, and they went through
everyone. And these were possibly the last people left they could talk to. So not all that surprising, in that sense.
And to the lawyers again, Sue Moss, Daniel Horowitz, Renee Rockwell. To you, Sue Moss. The reality is, although the parents
were very convincing in their grief after she went missing, the reality, the harsh reality of trial work, criminal law work,
is those closest to the victim are the first suspects. And typically, statistically, they are responsible. So this shouldn`t
be a surprise that the parents are being looked at, Susan.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: It`s like JonBenet Ramsey,
but without the make-up. If there is a substantial amount of blood or other bodily fluids, then yes, she`s in real trouble.
But if there`s only trace amounts, then not only is she not going to be convicted if taken to trial, but it will totally ruin
the entire investigation and the true abductor will never be caught.
GRACE: But if there are trace amounts of Maddy
in that car 25 days later, that`s incredibly damning!
MOSS: Unless it came from some other item from the apartment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCANN: ... tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by
offering her a deal through her lawyer, which was, If you say that you killed Madeleine by accident and then hid her and then
disposed of the body, then we can guarantee you a two-year jail sentence or even less. You may get off because people feel
sorry for you it was an accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is Maddy`s aunt, Philomena McCann, who is joining
us tonight. As you know by now, breaking news in the baby Maddy search, both mother and father named suspects in the baby
Out to the lines. Theresa in Florida. Hi, Theresa. I think I`ve got Theresa. Are you with me?
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to say one thing. God
bless you on your children to be and...
GRACE: Thank you! Thank you so much!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... you. You`re
my favorite person -- you`re my favorite person on TV. And I wanted to say...
GRACE: And they have been dancing and
doing taebo (ph) all night long. I`d just like you to know that. OK. Go ahead, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I wanted
to say is, how do they know that this blood was not in that car before they rented that car? And you know, to me it`s like
speculation. It reminds me of the Holloway case.
GRACE: OK, let`s go out to Paula Hancocks. How could DNA, fluid from
baby Maddy, get into the car, when the car wasn`t rented until 25 days after Maddy went missing, Paula?
to be honest, Nancy, if I could answer that, I think I`d be quite useful on the investigation team. I mean, it`s not something
you can -- you can really speculate on. The fact is, this has all come from the spokesman of the McCann family, saying that
this is what the Portuguese police are saying to -- to this lady, to Kate McCann, saying that these fluids were definitely
there. Now, of course, we can`t physically see the evidence. The Portuguese police are not showing any of the media anything,
so it`s very difficult to answer that one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now
to Portugal and new developments in the disappearance of little Madeleine McCann, the British girl who vanished in May in
Portugal. A family spokeswoman said her mother, Kate McCann, is now a suspect, though she`s not been charged. Police say traces
of the child`s blood were found in the car the family rented 25 days after her disappearance. Portuguese authorities have
not made any public statements yet on these new developments in Portugal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaking news
tonight as we go to air, not only the mother but the father, as well, named as a suspect by Portuguese police, baby Maddy
taken on a luxury vacation to Portugal by her parents, never seen again.
Out to Paula Hancocks, CNN correspondent,
joining us from Portugal. Will there be more questioning of the mother and father? They`ve already logged about 20 hours of
intense questioning by Portuguese police.
HANCOCKS: Absolutely, Nancy, yes, there will definitely be more questioning.
We don`t know the timing of it, though, but certainly, we`re going to be seeing McCanns back here at this police station in
this small town in southern Portugal. What they`ll be asked is anybody`s guess, but the fact is, now they are suspects, they
do have the right to remain silent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kate McCann
was questioned yesterday in Portimao. She was speaking to police officers there for some 11 hours. She emerged from that looking
tired and drawn. She returned for further questioning today, Friday. And she had more questioning later on in the day.
husband, Gerry, was called in to speak to authorities. At that point, as we understood it, according to a family spokeswoman,
he was going in just to be questioned as a witness. But a short time ago, it emerged that now both Kate and Gerry are both
formal suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaking news tonight in the
global search for a little girl snatched at a luxury resort during a vacation in Portugal. Out to the lines, Jolene in Florida.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you for watching, dear.
all the crimes happening on these children, when parents or anybody is charged like that and they`re actually being charged
with the crime, can`t they also be charged with filing false police reports, and interfering with an investigation, and improper
disposal of the body, just rack the charges up on them to, you know, get these people what`s just deserved to them?
Jolene, when I was prosecuting, I always tried to get the judge to run sentence consecutively, because we all know people
will parole out, and about half do, 70 percent of their jail time sentence.
Out to Renee Rockwell, a veteran criminal
defense attorney. If these allegations turn out to be true -- and you`ve got to keep in mind that these are the Portugal police
that have bungled the case so far. Look, I`ll put it out there: They`ve bungled it so far. If these allegations are true,
shouldn`t the parents be held responsible for going on television, and crying, and acting like they had no knowledge of what
was happening, raising all those millions of dollars of reward money?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy,
but these are not people -- sure, they can be held responsible for wasting time and all that. But these are not people that
are acting like suspects.
GRACE: No, they`re not.
ROCKWELL: They have lawyers. They continue to answer questions,
even though they`re lawyered up. They`re there. They could have left this country months ago, Nancy, but they`re still there.
It looks like there`s just a police department that`s trying to close a case, so they`re going to point at the parents now.
I don`t buy it, and I`m behind these parents 100 percent.
GRACE: To Lillian Glass, Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist
and author, I`ve had a lot of cases where police looked at multiple suspects trying to solve a case before they finally cracked
it. And you can`t hold, for instance, that Robert Murat guy -- again, police, remember they questioned the neighbor because
he was acting suspiciously to them? They questioned, questioned, questioned, named him a suspect, and ultimately did not arrest
him. You cannot hold it against police that they investigate more than one person before they crack a case.
GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: No, absolutely. You`re so right. And when you look at these people, either way, psychologically, your
heart goes out to them, because if it was an accident, the mother is devastated. And just what she`s going through right now,
so from a human level, you can really feel what the parents must be going through.
GRACE: Back to Philomena "Phil"
McCann. This is Baby Maddy`s aunt. Ms. McCann, thank you for being with us. Have either parent agreed to take a polygraph?
PHILOMENA MCCANN, AUNT OF MISSING BABY: No one`s asked them to take a polygraph. They have answered the questions
and cooperated with the police fully in all of this. And, fundamentally, they`re suspects. They`re not charged with anything.
And both Gerry and Kate are completely innocent of this heinous crime. And at this point, the Portuguese police are using
this as a smokescreen to cover themselves, because they have made an absolute botch-up of the investigation.
You know, I want to go to Larry Sutton, editor with "People" magazine. I threw it out there that they have botched the case;
that doesn`t mean they can`t recover. That doesn`t mean they can`t call a Hail Mary and save the day. But what do you perceive,
Larry -- you`ve been covering this from the get-go -- as failures in their investigation?
LARRY SUTTON, STAFF EDITOR,
"PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: It seems to be more of a trend. You might recall a case out in Chicago a couple months ago where the father
killed the wife and the kids in the car. That was another case where they sort of let him go, they waited, they waited. And
then a few weeks later, they brought in all the evidence and brought charges against the guy. This seems very similar to me.
I think it`s kind of a trend in the sense of...
GRACE: Take a look at your monitor, Larry. Take a look at this. Didn`t
check the video of vehicles leaving the resort, didn`t check motorway cams, you know, like at toll booths and so forth. Didn`t
notify the border patrol until 15 hours later. Ignored tips...
SUTTON: They did not treat this as a monstrous case
from day one, and they should have, yes.
GRACE: But, Larry, what do you make of this most recent development naming
the mom, then the dad as suspects? Remember, in Portugal, where this vacation took place, suspect doesn`t -- or aguido and
aguida -- does not mean the same thing as in the U.S.
SUTTON: Actually, it`s beneficial towards the people who are
named as suspects, because from this point on, the police have to tell them every bit of evidence that they collect against
them. So it helps them prepare for a trial should charges eventually be filed.
GRACE: You know, Jon Leiberman, with
"America`s Most Wanted," remember, of course, with John Walsh and his wife when their son went missing, with Marc Klaas when
his daughter, Polly, went missing. The first thing they did, they said, "Search my house, search my car, search me. I`ll give
you polygraph, I`ll give you DNA, whatever you want." Would you advise the parents, Jon, at this juncture to go full steam
ahead, give a polygraph, whatever they want so the police can continue looking for the killer?
JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT,
"AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Absolutely. I have no indication that they haven`t been fully cooperative. In fact, Nancy, a McCann
family member told me today that police told Kate that one reason why she was a suspect was that they found Maddy`s DNA all
over a bunch of her clothing and that the sniffer dogs were very, quote, "agitated" near Kate McCann. I mean, that is just
GRACE: Well, that doesn`t mean anything, for a mother to have their child`s DNA on her?
No, it`s the flimsiest evidence I`ve ever heard.
GRACE: But the car, the car, Jon Leiberman, if this evidence about
baby Maddy`s DNA being in the car, a car rented 25 days after Maddy went missing, that`s some hard evidence.
Oh, yes, that is absolutely hard to overcome. However, if they have Maddy`s DNA in that car, why not charge the parent? I
mean, it just -- it doesn`t make any sense to me. Look, Gerry McCann came here to the U.S. He met with our producers here.
He went over to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. He urged everybody to keep Madeleine`s case in the
media. He urged scrutiny. I mean, it just doesn`t seem like a man who could be responsible for the disappearance of his kid.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Dale in Ohio. Hi, Dale.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: My question is, after all this time, they`re a little slow over there, aren`t they, that the evidence that
they found now would be contaminated?
GRACE: You know, that`s an interesting point. To Dr. Joshua Perper, in my analysis,
after looking at many, many DNA cases, time would only possibly degrade or contaminate DNA. And if they get a positive match
of baby Maddy`s DNA in this car after all this time, I find that to be very strong, if it`s true, Dr. Perper.
JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, that`s true. But it`s also very important toward the configuration, what is the pattern
of the blood spots? Are they indicative of dripping blood? Are they indicative of somebody shaking someone who has a bloody
area? So we really don`t know what kind of pattern this blood had, what it was inside the car. If the amount is minuscule,
it might be from a doll or from something else which was brought to the car. Those are essential questions.
Dr. Perper, you are so correct. When analyzing blood evidence, you have to look at the type of blood evidence. For instance,
was it a drip from a nosebleed? Was it a splash from a skinned knee of baby Maddy? Or was it a blood spatter that occurs from
a hit with a blunt object or a shooting? So the type -- or smear. A smear of blood can be very incriminating, Dr. Perper.
GRACE: So in this case, we don`t know what type of blood evidence we have. We don`t even
know if it is sufficient blood evidence, Dr. Perper.
PERPER: That`s correct. That`s absolutely correct. We don`t know
exactly what kind of evidence is available to the police. And, therefore, we don`t know whether they have legitimate conclusion
which can be drawn.
GRACE: To Terry in Washington. Hi, Terry.
CALLER: This is Virginia actually, but that`s
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: My question is, if you look back on cases in the past where
mothers have killed their children, like the Yates case and the Susan Smith case, they didn`t leave the rest of the other
children alive. They killed all of the children. My question is, why was this little girl singled out? And, you know, God
GRACE: Terry, very interesting that in a majority of cases of parents killing children
or abusing children, they very often pick on one. So it isn`t always a whole wipeout of the family. And very quickly, Susan
in Pennsylvania, what`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Yes, Nancy. Since this was a rental car, shouldn`t the Portuguese
police be checking the rental records of that car the night that Maddy disappeared? Isn`t it possible whoever had that car
rented that night was somehow involved?
GRACE: Interesting question. I don`t know when they first got the car. As
a matter of fact, we`re investigating that right now, Susan.
Everyone, when we come back, a young assistant principal
leaves her 2- year-old baby to die in a hot car in a Cincinnati suburb. Oh, but she does remember one thing: to bring doughnuts
to work for the other teachers.
Larry King, aired 07 September 2007
LARRY KING CNN.com
Osama bin Laden's New Taped Message/The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
Aired September 7, 2007 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the world's most wanted terrorist is back in what looks like the new first
Osama bin Laden videotape in three years released today. We're going to talk with a former CIA officer who bin Laden mentions
by name in the tape and with men who have interviewed bin Laden face-to-face.
And then, the parents of missing 4-year-old Madeleine McCann now named suspects. Her family says the
mother was offered a plea deal -- two years in jail if she confesses to accidentally killing her own daughter. And reports
new DNA evidence show Madeleine's blood in a car her parents rented 25 days after she was reported missing. One shocking new
twist after another, and we've got all the latest from Portugal.
Plus, friends who have spoken with the McCanns, today
including Elizabeth, Smart's father.
* (report on Osama bin Laden tape)
Up next, nonstop shocking news all today in the case of the missing 4-year-old Madeleine McCann. Her
parents are now suspects in her disappearance. And we're going to hear from the little girl's aunt, who broke the news of
the mother's plea deal today. And she's next when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking
news. A surprise twist. The parents of missing Madeleine McCann named suspects in her disappearance.
A stunning turn of events in the investigation into the disappearance of 4-year-old Madeleine McCann.
FEMALE: We're being told that detectives have offered a deal if she admits to her guilt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We haven't
heard, until now, about possible blood found in a rental car used by the McCanns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A sudden and astonishing
shift in the case of Madeleine McCann.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR
(voice-over): Her story begins innocently enough. Kate and Gerry McCann, a British couple, take Madeleine and her twin 2-year-old
brother and sister on vacation to a resort in Portugal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here, Gerry, we're on holiday.
On the evening of May 3rd, after the children were asleep, Kate and Gerry left their ground floor room and the kids alone
to have dinner at a restaurant about 300 feet away. A short time later, Kate went to check on the kids and says she discovered
Madeleine was gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: And that story continues to get more bizarre all the time.
us in Liverpool, England is John Corner, a friend of the McCanns, parents of the missing little girl, godfather to Madeleine's
younger twin siblings. And he has been speaking with Madeleine's mother, Kate.
In Salt Lake City is our friend, Ed
Smart, the father of Elizabeth Smart, kidnapped and recovered. He's become a friend of the McCanns and has spoken with the
In Portugal is Robert Moore, the ITN correspondent who's been covering this from the start. And on the
phone in Scotland is Philomena McCann, who is Gerry's sister and who broke the news today that there was some sort of plea
bargain offered to the mother.
What can you tell us about it, Philomena?
PHILOMENA MCCANN, MADELEINE MCCANN'S
AUNT: Well, just what I said, you know, (INAUDIBLE) she would confess to a claim that she (INAUDIBLE) would be given a sentence,
you know, very reduced, like two years or even less, if she just said that she accidentally killed Madeleine, something that
she's never going to say because there's no truth in it whatsoever.
KING: What do they tell you, your brother and your
sister-in-law, about all of this?
MCCANN: Well, just that they -- as much as possible they've been helping the police.
And they can't believe how this has turned right around with them becoming suspects in this case and the fact that all of
their attention now seems to be focusing on them, and Madeleine has not been looked for with the vigor and intensity that
Madeleine is still missing. They're still looking for her and yet the police are not.
do they think happened?
MCCANN: Well, the police are trying to suggest that some kind of ridiculous accident and then
that they have kept Madeleine's body hidden, to move her around 25 days or so later, and put her somewhere else. I mean the
speculation is utterly stupid. And not just that, it's insulting. Gerry and Kate have been watched by the world media since
the day that started. To even suggest such a ridiculous story beggars belief.
KING: Philomena, remain with us.
going to call on you for a few more moments here, in addition with our panel, if you can hang with us.
you've covered this from the start.
Is that -- are they both through with being questioned?
ROBERT MOORE, ITN
CORRESPONDENT IN PORTUGAL, HAS INTERVIEWED BOTH PARENTS: Yes, they are now. They both have gone home and have left the police
station. But, yes. I'm hearing the same from my sources here, essentially, it is extraordinary how the Portuguese investigators
have handled Kate McCann, in particular. They simply said to her if you confess to killing Madeleine, we can guarantee that
you'll have two or three years in prison. They even suggested that she'd be out free again after a year, she'd be able to
see her twins grow up.
And Kate just was shocked by that and completely rejected it out of hand. She sees it emotional
blackmail, as intimidation. And she is adamant, as is Gerry, that they are innocent of all connections to the disappearance
of their daughter.
KING: John Corner, you're a friend of the McCanns.
Isn't it logical, though, for the parents
in a case like this to be initially suspected?
JOHN CORNER, GODFATHER TO MCCANNS' TWINS, HAS BEEN SPEAKING WITH MOTHER:
Yes, you're right, Larry. It's procedure. And right at the beginning of Madeleine's abduction, both Kate and Gerry were very,
very carefully and rigorously questioned. And you get a sense that you're questioned, it's cleared, you can move on and you
can start the actual campaign, the search, the fight to find Madeleine, who is missing, who is still missing.
have come full circle in this way, after four months, is bizarre, quite frankly, and flies in the face of common sense.
Ed Smart, as I remember it, you were -- well I don't know if you were ever a suspect. You were questioned, though, in the
disappearance of Elizabeth, were you not?
ED SMART, FATHER OF ELIZABETH SMART, SPOKE WITH GERRY MCCANN TODAY: Oh, yes.
I mean family members -- I was considered a potential suspect. You know, it's not unusual at all. I mean that's the first
place they've got to check.
The thing is that this has gone on for, what, over 100 days. And, you know, the -- I spoke
with Gerry this morning and he was absolutely outraged that the police could come to this point, when they haven't really
done any of the things they should have done. Initially, there was a person who said they saw a man carrying off a young girl.
And they could have done a forensic artist's rendering on that and that has never been done.
When Gerry and I spoke
before, I said, you know, Gerry, have they brought in a specialist?
Have they brought someone to take a look at the
whole investigation and see where somebody might have overlooked?
And he said no, they wouldn't even consider that.
SMART: That wasn't even a possibility.
KING: How have you become friends with them?
SMART: One of
my friends at the National Center put us in touch. And in July, we talked for some time. And we've been in touch. I've been
in touch with them two or three times in the past week. And I mean my heart just goes out for them. I just think this is outrageous.
And you have complete belief in their story?
SMART: I have complete belief. I mean why would a parent, one, subject
themselves to the criticism of having left their children and then to stay on in Portugal for four months -- for four months
looking for her?
If they were a suspect, why wouldn't they have just gone home and kind of let this die out and not
They care very much. And I know, I know in my heart that they are absolutely not the ones. And, you know, somebody's
got to get in there and be able to help the police see that they cannot have the tunnel vision that they have, because they
are missing what could be out there.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with lots more on this.
Don't go away.
JOHN WALSH, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED": This is a small police agency in Portugal that has never dealt with
a case of a missing child, has very limited resources, is having all kinds of scrutiny from the media throughout the world.
It's not unusual for them to focus back in on the family when they're frustrated and don't have any other suspects.
KING: Philomena McCann, we're going to let you go because I know how tired you
are, but one other thing. Did your sister-in-law, Kate, say anything to you about the possibility that she would be charged?
MCCANN: She just said that it remained a possibility, but -- and that was all she knew. But she wasn't about to be charged.
And I'll tell you that's totally underestimated Kate. She's not going to take this lying down. She's going to continue to
fight and hunt for Madeleine, and they'll be fighting the Portuguese police if they have to because it's an outrage.
How are the twins doing?
P. MCCANN: The twins are doing plenty well, actually. And my mother's been out here helping
and my sister, and they just love having the extended family around them. The kids are coping remarkably well.
Thank you. You're doing a noble job. Philomena McCann.
We welcome now to our panel John Corner, Ed Smart and Robert
Moore remain, Dr. Cyril Wecht, the famed forensic pathologist and attorney, former coroner of Allegheny county, and Candice
DeLong, former FBI profiler joins us from San Francisco. Dr. Wecht, what do you make about this blood report in the car?
CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, it is possible that blood from a garment or some other inanimate object could have
been transferred to a car subsequently. I have read -- been told that the car was not rented until 25 days later. The point
that I want to make here, Larry, is this. A dead body is not something that you flush down the toilet, throw in a garbage
can, burn like a piece of paper or hide as if it were some piece of paper, a document. A dead body decomposes. It gives off
a powerful odor. These people were under scrutiny. The news media were there.
The timeline is very tight. Did this
accidental death occur before they went to dinner? How much time elapsed from the time that they were last seen before they
went to the restaurant? With whom were they dining? What was the time that elapsed from the time that they left the restaurant
until they got back and they called into the police? Where is this dead body?
There was limited time presumably for
them to have disposed of the body, and so there's a geographic area that certainly should have been searched with utmost meticulous
KING: Does this mean, Dr. Wecht, that you doubt their guilt?
WECHT: Yes, I do. Where was this body
for all of these days? And they were remaining there, and there is no way that they could have taken a little jaunt and thrown
that baby somewhere, from the little I know about the Algarve area. This defies my olfactory senses as a forensic pathologist.
What does it do to our former profiler Candice DeLong? What do you make of this case?
FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, a lot of the information we're talking about tonight really has not been confirmed by the police.
One of the things that I would like to say is regarding this lengthy interrogation that the parents are now suspects, the
parents didn't just become suspects. They've probably been -- should have been at least considered as possible suspects from
the very beginning. And Larry, the reason for that is, in the vast majority of cases of missing children of this age, not
all, the vast majority, it turns out that they are missing and were murdered by a parent. Approximately 75 percent.
DELONG: So that's why the parents always have to be looked at. That certainly does not mean they did it.
What's the typical motive?
DELONG: Well, oftentimes what we see when very young children -- and we're just talking
here, we're not talking necessarily about Madeleine -- when they are murdered by a parent, the motive more often than not
is that it was an accident. Oftentimes we see children that are murdered by a parent were hit so hard that they died having
to do with blunt force trauma to the head. And what you're looking at when you see a child killed that way is the results
of a parent that lost control of their temper and hit a young child way too hard. And sometimes the parents that this happens
to, they call the police, and sometimes they stage the crime scene and try and make it look different. And sometimes they
try to get rid of the body.
KING: The longer this takes, Dr. Wecht, is it going to be harder to find who did it and
WECHT: Yes. Larry, to be realistic, I believe this amount of time having passed, that it is extremely unlikely
that the remains will ever be found. And what remains may be found if they are not out in the ocean will skeletonized. You
will not likely find a cause of death. And after this amount of time and assuming that the search has been done with some
diligence and thoroughness, it doesn't seem that the body is going to be found.
And I just want to point out, too,
and I don't say this because I'm a physician. Physicians can and have been guilty of some terrible crimes. But these are both
physicians. And with regard to the comments that were made with which I agree, remember, blunt force trauma inflicted to the
head by physicians is an injury that they would be quite cognizant of. And to inflict that kind of severe trauma such as to
produce death from an intracranial bleed is something that you just would not expect from physicians.
Dr. Wecht. Thanks for joining us. As always. And when we come back, John Corner, Ed Smart, Robert Moore and Candice DeLong
remain. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERRY MCCANN, MADELEINE'S FATHER: Never,
never, ever jeopardize the investigation. And I think it's critical for people to realize that.
KATE MCCANN, MADELEINE'S
MOTHER: We will do anything to cooperate with the police to get Madeleine back.
G. MCCANN: We hope and pray for her
every single day that today will be the day that Madeleine will be found.
K. MCCANN: We beg you to let Madeleine come
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Robert Moore, how is the -- before we meet some other panelists joining us -- how
is the Portuguese media treating this?
MOORE: Well, frankly, we're a tidal wave of rumor. And frankly, many of the
Portuguese newspapers are openly saying that they believe that Kate and Gerry are involved in the disappearance of Madeleine.
You know, I spoke to a source close to the investigation. I was asking how Gerry has dealt with the questioning. And she said,
well, just imagine how an angry Scot is defending the honor of his wife. In other words, Gerry is giving as good as he gets
to the Portuguese detectives.
There have been some very, very angry exchanges in this police station behind me. You
know, certainly it's becoming a high-octane questioning of both Kate and Gerry. They are trying to defend themselves every
inch of the way now.
KING: We're joined by two of our legal regulars, Stacey Honowitz, the Florida assistant state
attorney. She is in Miami. And in Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, the criminal defense attorney. Mark, how does this look to you?
Does it look like a railroad or what?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, actually, it happens so often,
it's surprising to me that it's not publicized more often. The reason that most people aren't jumping on the bandwagon in
this case is because both of these people have acted right, if you will. I mean, generally, if you don't act right, that's
when the police start to focus on you, and then that's what the media starts to kind of blitzkrieg you, if you will. In this
case there hasn't been anything anybody's ever suggested where either one of these people have ever acted differently than
they should have, and consequently, I think that's why there's been so much support. Clearly, the -- anybody who's at least
watching what's going on, some of the things that have been suggested, at least by the police in the investigation, just appear
to be ludicrous on their face.
KING: Stacey, how do you view it?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well,
I think what viewers have to remember is they're not charged with anything yet. They're just listed as suspects. And under
Portuguese law, in order to go from a witness to a suspect, you have to be declared a suspect because that will forge you
more rights. Because if they want to ask you deeper questions, which they think might incriminate you, you have a right to
remain silent, as we do here, or to have a lawyer assist you.
And in this case, although they are questioning them
more thoroughly, they did get lawyers, and it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be charged with a crime. So right
now all we have is rumor. We don't know what the evidence is. We're going to have to wait and see what comes out of this.
Yeah, but Stacey, having defended thousands of people, I can tell you something. It's extremely difficult, once you've been
named a suspect, to ever get that back, especially if the case is never solved.
HONOWITZ: Mark, I'm not -- listen.
That follows you around the rest of your life.
HONOWITZ: I'm not saying that they won't always be listed or people
might think that they were involved, but that doesn't mean they're going to be charged with the crime. You can never get your
reputation back, that's true.
GERAGOS: Why do the police have to reveal it? Why do they have to let this out? Why is
this something that needs to be out there in the public realm?
HONOWITZ: Quite frankly, I don't know if they did reveal
it. They went to them early in the week. I think on Monday they called them and said we want to question you more thoroughly.
That's -- and then on Wednesday, the lawyer went and said, we're going to go in and represent them. I don't know what the
GERAGOS: Right. In response to the leaks.
KING: Let me get in one more question for Candice DeLong
who is going to be leaving us. Candice, do you believe this case will be solved?
DELONG: Well, I agree with Dr. Wecht.
The longer it goes on, the less likely is that it will. I do believe that if Mrs. McCann had nothing to do with this, and
certainly she -- I can't see this as the type of person that would say -- will take a plea agreement just to end it, if she
is truly innocent. It's pretty unlikely, statistically, that Madeleine was taken by a stranger for some kind of nefarious
DELONG: But we'll see.
KING: Thanks, Candice, as always. We'll come back, John, and
Ed Smart. Will rejoin us and be heard from again. Stacey and Mark Geragos, as will Robert Moore. Right now let's check in
with Randi Kaye sitting in for Anderson Cooper tonight. She'll host AC 360. Randi, what's up?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT:
Hi, Larry, thanks. We'll also be hearing some of the new Osama bin Laden tape. The two alternatives he delivers for Americans
and President Bush's reaction from Australia. Also tonight, a 360 special, "Fallen Prophet: Polygamy on Trial." A jury is
getting ready to decide the fate of Warren Jeffs, the polygamist leader and former fugitive. Tonight, a look at the case against
him as well as chilling words from the star witness for the prosecution. A brave young woman now under police protection.
That's all tonight right here on 360, Larry.
KING: Thanks, Randi. That's at 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific. By the way,
if you missed our interview with President Bill Clinton Wednesday night, download it at cnn.com/larryking or on iTunes. We
talked about everything from Senator Craig and the 2008 presidential elections to the president's new book, and the campaign
about how you can change the world. Download a great podcast at cnn.com/larryking or on iTunes.
We'll be right back.
BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSTINE MCGUINNESS, MCCANN SPOKESPERSON: She's a loving and caring mother. And anybody who
knows Kate would know that she wouldn't hurt a fly.
JOHN MCCANN, MADELEINE'S UNCLE: Put the facts on the table. Let's
see what they are. Because anybody who knows Gerry and Kate knows that to implicate them in any way is ridiculous.
HEALY, KATE MCCANN'S MOTHER: What everybody forgets is there's a missing child. There's a child that's taken from an apartment.
Who's doing anything to find this child?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: John Corner, does it hurt you to the core when
you hear an FBI profiler say that the odds are 75 percent that the parents did it?
CORNER: It's very unusual to listen
to, Larry. It's more unusual to listen to them talking about Madeleine as a dead body because we truly believe she's out there,
and she's still alive. And certainly Kate is holding on to that belief and so is Gerry. I can just say, though, I think as
far as the investigation goes, I think there's a tremendous amount of hindsight going on.
Nobody could have ever imagined
that the media profile would have become as huge as it is. And I think it's becoming a national embarrassment for the Portuguese.
I think there's a real pressure on the police to wrap it up. And there's also a cultural difference as well because the Portuguese
mindset is very much that this is a British problem that's been imported into their country. And I think this focus on the
family is part of that, that cultural attempt to wrap it up as a British issue.
KING: Ed Smart, you, too, had to listen
to reports of your daughter's death.
SMART: I did. And Elizabeth was and is alive. And Gerry truly believes that Madeleine
is still alive, and this is diverting the attention from where it needs to be. And this morning when I spoke with him, he
was so concerned that the Portugal police were under such pressure, he says, "Ed, I would not be surprised if they, you know,
don't plant evidence in the car, you know, to have them think that there's DNA in this car that I rented after the fact is
just outrageous, and what could they possibly have? There's no chance in the world." And you know, he is just ...
Boy. You'd go berserk if you didn't do it.
SMART: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I really feel in my heart there's
not a chance that they were in any way involved. You know, the police have got to wake up and realize that they have got to
focus where the focus needs to be, and they need to do this forensic artwork this they need to get the picture out there.
The public is what creates awareness, what brings children home. And if they are focusing on things that are nonproductive,
which is what they're doing now, then, you know, Madeleine is somewhere.
KING: Mark, have you ever defended a parent
accused of killing a child?
GERAGOS: Yes, as recently as last week.
KING: And if they were innocent, isn't that
the hardest thing to live through, not only is your child gone, but you're being accused?
GERAGOS: Well, it's twofold
or maybe even threefold what the problem is here. First of all, you're being accused. No parent, as we've discussed before
countless times, ever wants to even imagine that their child is going to die before them. I mean, it's the worst thing you
could ever have.
Then when you have the police -- when you cooperate with the police and then when the suspicion starts
to get focused on you or the accusation's on you, that compounds matters, and it compounds just the sense of confusion and
shock. But then when you're this far removed from that initially and you see that they're wasting their time and their resources
on you, you want to reach out and choke somebody. It's just ridiculous at a certain point.
KING: Stacey, is the prosecutor
between a rock and a hard place in something like this?
HONOWITZ: Well, I think what we really are losing sight of
is the fact that when you are doing an investigation, if certain leads come up, for instance, this alleged blood evidence
found in their car, you have no choice but to go down that avenue. Once again, I'm going to tell you, they're not charged
with a crime, Mark.
GERAGOS: Wait a second.
HONOWITZ: They are not charged with a crime.
Can I just ask you a question here, Stacey?
HONOWITZ: Wait. They have to be able to investigate.
they found blood in that car, how are they going to say at this insipient stage of the investigation we know it was an accident,
we're going to offer you two years? If they honestly believe that this woman had something to do with it, why are they offering
her, you'll be out of this in a year? And how insulting is that that if she didn't do it, she would take that one year and
put it behind her? Why? Because she never wants to find her child again? So the investigation will stop? How stupid. It's
HONOWITZ: I'm not saying what the police did by saying to her, listen, take this plea and we'll get
it all over with, I can't tell you why they did that.
GERAGOS: Because they're brain dead.
KING: Let her finish,
Mark. GERAGOS: They're brain dead.
HONOWITZ: People are asking questions, why are they interviewing the parents?
Because they're desperate.
HONOWITZ: If they focus in on the family, they have to. OK?
GERAGOS: They already
did. They've had four months. They've had four months to do it. It's obviously pure desperation.
HONOWITZ: Can I ask
you one question? Do we have any idea if any of the statements between the mother and the father, and I don't know so I'm
not saying -- do we know if there were inconsistencies?
GERAGOS: Of course there's going to be, yes.
There could be evidence that we don't know about.
KING: We've got to get another break, folks. Hold it. We'll be right
GERAGOS: Of course there are inconsistencies. Nobody's going to be ...
KING: We'll be -- the dynamic duo
returns after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
K. MCCANN: Please, please don't hurt her. Please don't scare her. Please
tell us where to find her. Or put her in a place of safety and let somebody know where she is. We need our Madeleine. Sean
and Emily need Madeleine, and Madeleine needs us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Robert Moore,
has the public generally supported this couple in Portugal?
MOORE: Not necessarily in Portugal, but certainly they
have in Britain, as you'd expect. I think the key point tonight in many ways, Larry, is we just don't yet know the strength
or the consistency of the forensic evidence. You know, but what is clear is two sets of people under supreme pressure. Most,
obviously, Kate and Gerry McCann, but also the Portuguese police here. They don't have a body yet. They've been making a lot
of accusations. So the forensic evidence had better be pretty good.
KING: Think we're going to solve it, Mark?
No, I don't think they are. I think -- well, are they going to solve it correctly?
probably a better question. They may solve it, and I'm not so sure that the way they solve it will be the correct way.
HONOWITZ: I don't think anybody knows anything. I hope they find the child alive, that's the bottom line to
all of this.
KING: Ed Smart, are they confident -- are the parents confident?
SMART: The parents are very confident
that she's still out there. And with that confidence, I hope they're able to move forward and focus on what needs to be focused
on and find this girl.
KING: Did you remain confident throughout?
SMART: I did. I felt like Elizabeth was out
there. I had these impressions, and I could not give up. And I know that Gerry and Kate feel the same way.
you think we're going to find Madeleine?
CORNER: I absolutely hope so. I think Ed's got it spot on there. I think in
the U.S., you're world experts on child exploitation and being able to deal with these abduction issues. I think Europe is
absolutely decades behind. One thing that will come out of all of this, whatever happens, is that Europe really has to wake
up and do something about its boundaries and Pra de Luce (ph) is a very, very sleepy place. It doesn't even have a police
force. And I think Kate and Gerry were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
KING: Well said. Thank you all very much.
By the way, don't forget to check out our Web site, cnn.com/larryking. You can download our newest podcast, President Bill
Clinton. Or you can e-mail upcoming guests or participate in our quick votes. You can even sign up for our newsletter all
Nancy Grace, 10 September 2007
NANCY GRACE CNN.com
Portuguese Police Turn McCann Case Over to Prosecutor for
Aired September 10, 2007 - 20:00:00
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 3-year-old (SIC) little girl, baby Maddie,
reportedly snatched during a luxury resort vacation, her parents party at dinner just 100 yards away at the time. Tonight,
police naming Maddie`s own mom and dad prime suspects. Police announce they`re set to turn evidence over to prosecutors, reportedly
police seeking charges of homicide and concealing the baby`s body.
As we go to air, stunning reports. Baby Maddie`s
DNA, possibly blood, found under the carpet of a car trunk, that car rented by Maddie`s family 25 days after she goes missing.
Mom and Dad now flee the country, denying any involvement in Maddie`s disappearance. The clock is ticking. Maddie`s parents
have just five days to surrender to police, all the while experts continue to comb through evidence from that rental car and
the luxury vacation resort where baby Maddie last seen alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
A stunning development in the case of missing girl Madeleine McCann, a Portuguese television station now reporting a full
DNA match to baby Maddie found in the family`s rental car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her parents home now in the UK,
waiting to see if they will, in fact, be charged in her disappearance. Now, we told you last week the McCanns now reportedly
suspected of accidentally killing Madeleine and then hiding her body. They have hired a high-profile legal team that specializes
in protecting the reputations of people under investigation. Portuguese police are turning the case over to the prosecutor`s
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Tonight, after 11 full days of intense searching by land,
by air, by water, police confirm they have ID`d remains of 22-year-old BYU coed Camille Cleverley, found Provo Canyon, Utah,
Cleverley last seen leaving her apartment on a silver and purple Schwinn. At this hour, autopsy under way to determine how
that BYU senior ended up 200 feet below her bike trail at the foot of a cliff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALE: Investigators say her body was at the base of these cliffs. It is believed she fell some 200 feet into a forested area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was about a thousand yards from the falls. They walked right up on her and were able to find
her there. It`s so dense in that area that, literally, if you had been 10 feet to the left or right, they may not have seen
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search and rescue teams from Wasatch and Utah Counties canvassed the steep, rugged terrain
surrounding the falls. It was in an area already searched several times that the sad discovery was made. Camille`s family
gathered and watched as rescuers removed her body from the mountainside, comforting each other and grieving. There is sorrow
but also relief. Now it will be up to investigators to determine how Camille might have fallen.
We have been able to confirm from clothing articles and items that this is indeed Ms. Cleverley. We`ve turned this into an
investigation, but we can confirm that she did die upon the mountain at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. First, police name parents of missing Maddie
McCann prime suspects. We learn the claim is based on the child`s alleged DNA under the carpet in the trunk of the McCann
rental car. Maddie`s parents flee the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Portuguese
television station reports tonight that according to police, DNA found in a rental car matches missing girl Madeleine McCann,
the car rented by Maddie`s parents 25 days after reporting her disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s been confirmed
the Portuguese police will hand their dossier of evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann to the country`s public prosecutor.
He must then decide whether charges will be brought against them over the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday Kate and Gerry McCann returned to Britain with their 2-year-old twins. On Friday, Portuguese
police named them as suspects in Maddie`s disappearance. A family member said police offered Kate McCann a plea deal if she
confessed to accidentally killing her daughter. The couple denies any involvement in Madeleine`s disappearance.
MALE: We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter, Madeleine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The papers
have been reporting that Michael Kaplan (ph) QC has been consulted by the family. Now, he is a well known expert in international
criminal law in this country, perhaps best known for preventing the extradition of General Pinochet to Spain.
FEMALE: Police say the investigation is far from over, but today`s developments suggest they believe they have enough evidence
to bring charges against Gerry and Kate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Baby Maddie`s parents named the prime
suspects in her death or disappearance. And now we learn that DNA, that bodily fluid we told you about on Friday night, is
allegedly blood, baby Maddie`s blood. And where? Under the carpet in the trunk of the rental car the parents rented 25 full
days after they reported her missing. We also understand from reports there`s an 80 percent DNA match to baby Maddie.
Let`s go out to Adrian Finighan, CNN correspondent, standing by in Leicestershire, England. Tell me the latest, Adrian.
How do we know whether that fluid is blood? And what is the police theory as to how baby Maddie`s blood got in the trunk under
the carpet, I guess where you put a spare tire, 25 days after she goes missing?
ADRIAN FINIGHAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT:
It`s interesting. It`s quite a conundrum, isn`t it, Nancy. Now, we`ve spoken to forensics experts here in Britain, and they
are cautioning this DNA evidence. Everyone thinks that DNA evidence is infallible. It`s not. This could be a tiny speck, a
single cell of Maddie`s bodily fluid, blood, whatever it is. It could have come from anywhere, the forensics experts are saying.
This is not to throw cold water on it, but they`re just saying, Look, this could have been her -- even her spit on
a toy that one of her siblings, the two twins, the 2-year-old sister and brother, could have been playing with after her disappearance.
They could have taken it into the car. That`s how the DNA evidence might have got into that car, Nancy.
Adrian Finighan, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. So you want me to go out on a limb that maybe one of the twins
were playing with a toy that had Maddie`s saliva on it, and somehow it got under the carpet of the trunk in a rental car 25
days later? That story is preposterous!
FINIGHAN: I`m no expert, Nancy. I`m only going on what the forensic experts
in this country are saying. There`s a lot of expertise as far as DNA is concerned. And these tests are still ongoing on this
Now, we got those reports saying there was, what, a 98 percent match, an 80 percent match on DNA from Maddie.
There are other reports now, even as we go on air, saying, Whoa, whoa, that`s not quite right. Apparently, it could be even
lower than that, a 40 percent match. We just don`t know.
As I said, people think that this DNA evidence is infallible
and it`s not, the experts here putting the brakes on these reports suggesting that Maddie`s fluids have been found in that
car. They`re saying that there are a hundred different ways that those DNA samples could have got into that vehicle, even
if they were found under the carpet in the trunk, as you say.
GRACE: Interesting. Out to Paula Hancocks, standing
by in Portimao, Portugal. As you know, this is where the luxury resort was where baby Maddie was vacationing with her parents,
her parents 100 yards away that evening, partying at a dinner party, leaving the children alone, unattended in a luxury condo.
Now, Paula, the word is that they did go back to check on the children throughout the dinner. I don`t know if it was
the mom and dad or just the mom, how often they went back. But explain to me this recent development that now we`re hearing
the body solution is, in fact, blood in that rental car.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, there
are a tremendous amount of conflicting reports this Monday evening. We had heard Portuguese media reporting that it was a
100 percent DNA match to Madeleine, showing that it was DNA evidence, that the body of Madeleine was in that rental car.
This is Portuguese media quoting police sources. The police are not going to come out officially and say anything.
There`s a law that prevents them from doing that. They`re in the middle of a criminal investigation. The parents themselves
can`t confirm or deny anything because they are not allowed to talk about the investigation. All they`re saying is they had
nothing to do with the disappearance.
But then as Adrian was saying, once again, you`re getting other people and
other media, British and Portuguese, saying that it is not an exact match. There were three samples sent to Britain, two from
this particular rental car and then another from the holiday apartment itself. Now, Portuguese media reporting that two of
those were an exact match and one wasn`t. But without the full evidence in front of us, it is very hard to know exactly what
the police know.
And hopefully, we will know a little bit more on Tuesday as they give out that information to
the prosecutor, who will then decide whether or not there`s a basis to charge the parents.
GRACE: Paula Hancocks
is joining us from the country of that luxury resort, Portimao, Portugal. Paula, another issue. Is it true that the police
are handing their case file over to prosecutors tomorrow, a case file they have built against the parents?
Yes, Nancy, that is true. They`ll -- it`s basically the entire investigation that they have carried out for the past four
months, and also, a tremendous amount of investigation with the questioning of Kate and Gerry McCann. Now, you remember on
Thursday, Kate McCann was questioned for 11 hours. She came back Friday, was questioned for another five hours. Gerry McCann
was then interviewed for about eight hours.
So there was going to be a tremendous amount of paperwork for this
prosecutor to go through. And then what he has to decide is, Is there enough evidence right now to charge these parents in
the disappearance of their own daughter? Is that the case? Will the police have to go back and find more evidence? Or the
third and probably less likely case, do the police have to then be told by the prosecutor, You`re going down the wrong track,
this does not hold?
GRACE: To Larry Sutton, staff editor with "People" magazine. Larry, thank you for
being with us. I understand the clock is ticking, that the parents have to turn themselves back in to police in five days.
LARRY SUTTON, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: That`s just a procedural matter. They want to make sure they know
where they are. Again, what we`re really waiting on -- and this could take months, even, for the prosecutor to turn around
and say, We`ve got enough evidence here, or, We don`t have enough, go back and do your job again. So maybe we`ll learn something
in a day or two, maybe a month or two.
GRACE: To Mike brooks. Mike, a lot could hinge on the statements, the statements
specifically by the mother, because it`s very difficult to go over 11 hours of police questioning without a single inconsistency,
if you`re not telling the truth.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s exactly right,
Nancy. They said that -- she says they`re trying to make her lie. But something during this interview, Nancy, had to bring
them to that rental vehicle that was rented 25 days after she was reported missing. So you know, there was something during
that whole interview process that brought them to that car. And did they use luminol? What kind of forensics did they use
to find this spot of blood in the trunk?
GRACE: To Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and expert in forensic
pathology. Dr. Morrone, all this business where people throw around the phrase, There`s a match, there`s not a match -- that`s
not the way DNA -- deoxyribonucleic acid -- works. You get, for instance, a 1-in- a-500,000 match. In other words, the likelihood
is 1 out of 500,000 or 1 in 3 trillion -- it could be that big -- likelihood that this DNA belongs to baby Maddie. It`s not
-- explain it. You`re the scientist. I`m just a lawyer. Explain. It`s not so simple as, There`s a match, there`s not a match.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: What they would like to say is there`s an index of suspicion
or a ratio or some kind of risk profile. But the genetic DNA, when it`s analyzed, will be 50 percent from the contribution
of the mother and 50 percent from the father. When they put that together with previous samples, it`s absolute.
when they`re talking about the different kinds of DNA, if they do a mitochondrial DNA versus a nuclear DNA, mitochondrial
DNA will be a 100 percent match to the mother alone, all by itself, because that`s where all of us get our mitochondrial DNA,
from our mother. If it`s degraded, that`s the only thing that we have to see. If it`s degraded, how old and how exposed was
it? That might be where they`re coming up with the percents.
GRACE: And another thing, Dr. Morrone, this whole
business about maybe one of the twins -- remember, Maddie has younger siblings, twins -- were playing with a toy that had
her saliva on it. They got in the back of the car, under the carpet -- that`s awfully attenuated.
they talk about that transfer -- there are certain principles in the transfer of trace evidence. From object to object is
the weakest transfer. From person to person is the strongest transfer. And that`s where you get tissues and solutions embedded
in carpet fibers.
GRACE: And why would toys be under the carpet in the trunk of a rental car? You know, it really
is going to depend on me (ph) what type of body fluid it is, where the location is, how much there is and what the match is.
Even if they have, for instance, an 80 percent match to baby Maddie, that`s still very strong. If it drops down to below 50
percent, that`s not nearly strong. Would you agree or not, Dr. Morrone?
MORRONE: I agree. And I know this much,
that I don`t do anything with my children that would transfer their body fluids to the trunk of my car.
Under the carpet. It`s ridiculous!
MORRONE: Yes, yes.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Joan in Massachusetts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. My question is, when was the last time someone other than the parents
saw the child alive? The child could have been dead the day before or the morning, when nobody was looking at the parents
or what they were doing. And I hope it`s not the parents, but I think that should be investigated.
it`s funny you would bring that up. I was trying to find out tonight if the mother and the father were going to check on the
children during dinner. Was it only the mother? Why have they honed in on the mother specifically?
Let`s go out
to Paula Hancocks, CNN correspondent, standing by in Portugal where that luxury resort is. When was the last time anybody
other than the parents saw baby Maddie alive?
HANCOCKS: That`s exactly the question, Nancy, that the police are
trying to answer. They`re asking what happened on that evening. They have a couple of hours which they want to find out the
exact minutes or the exact timing of when either Gerry or Kate or both went back and checked on the three children because
there were twins 2 years old who were in that holiday apartment, as well.
Now, we understand from the Portuguese
media quoting these police sources, saying that there was also a friend that went back to the holiday apartment, we understand,
from the McCann family. That friend didn`t actually go into the room where the children were sleeping. And certainly, there`s
-- this is exactly what the police want to know. They want to know minute by minute what happened that evening. And surely,
that`s why the questioning for Kate and Gerry has just been so long and so intense.
GRACE: Well, you know -- to
Larry Sutton, editor with "People" magazine -- to state the last time you saw your child should be relatively easy.
It shouldn`t be that difficult to recall that. Larry, do we know when someone else during the day -- for instance, was it
that day at the pool, was it right before dinner -- that somebody else saw baby Maddie?
SUTTON: Well, you know,
there are 22 questions that the police asked both the husband and the wife in this case. And the timing has a lot to do with
it. There`s about an hour that police can`t account for. They don`t have that exact answer yet, and the parents aren`t telling
GRACE: OK, that, in my mind -- out to Dr. Robi Ludwig -- is very, very unusual, that the parents cannot
tell the cops when was the last time the neighbors, some of your friends you were having dinner with -- were there other people
-- oh, did you talk he take her to the pool? Did you take her to the local aquarium? Was she outside playing? Just anybody,
any witness that saw baby Maddie that day.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It`s true, it would be unusual. However,
we don`t know if they`re sleep-deprived, if they`re nervous. It does sound very suspicious. And also what strikes me...
GRACE: Dr. Robi, sleep-deprived? I`m sleep-deprived right now with these twins bouncing around.
GRACE: I`m up all night long.
GRACE: I can remember the last time I saw you in person,
GRACE: That doesn`t make sense to me that you`re saying if they`re sleep-deprived,
they don`t remember when there was a witness.
LUDWIG: You have to remember, too, during the questioning process,
if they`re sleep-deprived, if they`re pressured, if they`re nervous, you know, sometimes you can`t always come up with the
right answers. And maybe that can account for it, although I agree with you, Nancy, it does sound suspicious.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The parents of 4-year-old Madeleine McCann, missing in
Portugal, are back in England this morning, even though police in Portugal named them official suspects in their daughter`s
disappearance. And more details are coming out right now about it, Kate McCann saying police pressured her to confess that
she accidentally killed Madeleine and then hid her body for days. British papers are suggesting that the McCanns are being
framed by police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Baby Maddie`s parents now named the prime suspects in the
disappearance of their 3-year-old little girl. And now we find this allegedly blood, baby Maddie`s blood in the trunk of a
rental car they rented, under the carpet.
Out to the lines. Jill in South Carolina. Hi, Jill.
FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you and your show.
GRACE: Thank you, love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to
know why the parents never were charged for leaving children under 4 alone.
GRACE: You know, that`s interesting.
Let`s go out to Penny Douglass Furr. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Penny first, Steve Greenberg out of New York, Anne Bremner,
high-profile lawyer out of Seattle. What about it, Penny? Never any charges.
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:
There should have been because you totally cannot leave a 4-year-old by themselves and with two twins that are 2 years old.
That`s ridiculous. But what concerns me is that, why didn`t the police investigate the parents in the very beginning of this
case and eliminate them before they went forward?
GRACE: Or speak to them separately. You`re right, speak to them,
eliminate them. It never happened. Anne Bremner, weigh in.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, 25 days, Nancy,
it`s, like, the more you explain it, the less I understand it. Where was baby Maddie for 25 days? They just now look at them
as suspects and announced it. We don`t know what they said back when, but it sure looks like they eliminated them in their
own minds from the get-go.
GRACE: You know -- to Steve Greenberg -- with other parents, maybe less glamorous, maybe
more ordinary parents, you leave your kids alone at home to go party 100 yards away at a dinner party, you`re in trouble.
STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You may be in trouble, but that`s not really the issue here. The issue here is
why are they focusing on...
GRACE: But that is the question from Jill in South Carolina. Please answer it.
GREENBERG: Well, this is -- what are you going to get in trouble for?
GRACE: Neglect? Duh!
You don`t know that they did anything wrong.
GRACE: You left your kids alone, for Pete`s sake! She`s 3 years old!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCANN: (INAUDIBLE) the Portuguese authorities and police.
Portuguese law prohibits us from commenting further on the police investigation. Despite there being so much we wish to say,
we are unable to do so except to say this. We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter, Madeleine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Paula Hancocks, CNN correspondent, standing by near that luxury
resort at Portimao, Portugal. Paula, if they are formally charged, I understand it`s a manslaughter-type charge?
HANCOCKS: Well, there`s a couple of different options, really. The prosecutor can decide either to go for a manslaughter
charge or an accidental killing charge, which would obviously be a lesser sentence. We understand from experts over here that`s
about a three to five-year sentence. Manslaughter is something more like a 12 years` sentence. But of course, we heard from
the McCann family saying that Kate McCann had already said that the police offered her a deal, saying if she admitted to accidentally
killing her daughter, she`d only get two years.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, police don`t have the authority to offer a
deal on behalf of the DA`s office.
BROOKS: No, they sure don`t, and that`s why the DA now has the case jacket to
decide if there are any charges. But Nancy, I have a couple other things. What happened to that guy that was named a suspect
three months ago?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I flew back with
Kate and Gerry yesterday. I was on there -- on the plane that brought them back to England from Portugal. It was a very poignant
scene, because at the very end, as I left the plane ahead of the McCanns, I saw that Kate was just looking out the airplane
window and quietly sobbing. And you can just imagine the emotion for her coming back home without Madeleine.
FEMALE: She`s actually doing some talking, apparently, this at least according to the U.K. "Sunday Mirror." They
quoted Kate as saying, "They want me to lie. I`m being framed. Police don`t want a murder in Portugal." They`re
basically saying, "If you confess Madeleine had an accident, that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month, then
got rid of it in a hired car, I`d get two or three years suspended sentence."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
What is the police theory? What we know tonight is the mom and the dad, prime suspects in baby Maddy`s death and disappearance,
one or the other. Also, we have listened to reports that the body fluid found in the back of the car of that rental car is
under the carpet, in the trunk, and there`s an 80 percent to 98 percent chance that it is baby Maddy`s blood. That leaves
them with a lot of explaining to do.
Out to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and forensic pathologist. Dr.
Morrone, they seem to be going on a theory that baby Maddy was sedated to make her go to sleep so they could go out to dinner.
OK, let`s think about that for a moment. What would be the bodily fluid 25 days later if they transported a dead body? What
would be the bodily fluid?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: There are a number of bodily fluids that could
accumulate. When red blood cells compact with platelets and clotting factors, what`s extracted is something called serum.
It could be old urine. It could be...
GRACE: Twenty-five days later?
MORRONE: If it`s in the body and
the body has been stored, those things, along with other chemical markers, would also give them the idea of decomposition.
GRACE: What do you mean other chemical markers? Break it down, Morrone! What do you mean "other chemical markers"?
MORRONE: I`m going to use two words, and one of these is going to be really familiar to you. One of them is called
spermine and one of them is called cadaverine. These are compounds that are only given off in dead bodies. You don`t get these
compounds in live children or live adults...
GRACE: Oh, you mean like gas, the body starts emitting gas as it decomposes?
MORRONE: It`s still in a fluid state, but these two molecules called spermine and cadaverine, cadaverine is what`s
used to train cadaver dogs. They spray cadaverine on a rag, and they let the dogs sniff it, then they go hide the rag. That`s
how you train a cadaver dog.
GRACE: ... a fluid that the body creates postmortem?
MORRONE: Yes, as part of the decomposition. And if the body fluid and the DNA also contain these, then there is a suspicion
that this was decomposition and death, yes.
GRACE: So if the bodily fluid and what contain this?
You would find spermine and cadaverine in urine or other bodily fluids that might be secreted, because it`s like a wine. It
matures. And it ferments. And this is what`s produced in fermentation.
GRACE: I get it. I understand it. Thank
you, Dr. Morrone.
Out to the lines, Julie in Michigan. Hi, Julie. Hold on. To Laura in West Virginia. Sorry, Julie.
Laura, are you with me?
CALLER: Yes, hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
CALLER: My question
is, with all of the money that the McCann family has raised, are there any independent investigators looking for Maddy, or
have they left that up to the Portuguese authorities who seem to kind of botched everything up?
question. To Adrian Finighan, CNN correspondent standing by in Leicestershire, England, didn`t they hire private investigators
ADRIAN FINIGHAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They did, for a while. They`re also looking now at a crack legal
team here in U.K. that they want to hire, too. There`s a problem. Do you know how much money, Nancy, is in that fund that
they began when Maddy first went missing, this fund which is called Madeleine`s Fund, the leaving no stone unturned appeal?
Two million dollars. The problem is, now, because they`ve been declared official suspects, the McCanns can`t access that fund.
They were able to use it for their living expenses while they were in Portugal and if they wanted to hire private detectives
then. But now they`re official suspects. They can`t.
There`s talk today here in the British media that Michael
Caplan, QC, he`s an expert in international criminal law, he`s the guy that prevented the extradition of General Pinochet,
Chile`s General Pinochet, from the U.K. to Spain a few years ago. There`s speculation that he is being brought in by the McCann
family to fight their case. But, of course, he doesn`t come cheap. Gerry McCann is a heart surgeon. She`s a doctor, too. They`re
not exactly poor. But whether they can stretch that far, we`ll have to wait and see.
GRACE: Speaking of her being
a doctor, to Adrian Finighan, CNN correspondent standing by there in Leicestershire, England, reports also surfaced today
that she had actually told police during those 11 hours of questioning that she may have had cadaver scent on her because
of her duties as a doctor. Has that surfaced?
FINIGHAN: It has, indeed. It`s been reported around here. Now, let`s
look at that for a moment. She`s a GP. She works part-time...
GRACE: It doesn`t make sense.
Well, she works part-time as a GP, a locum doctor here in this community, in the English midlands. It`s a busy community.
It`s quite big. She reckons she came into contact with six dead bodies in the days before they went abroad, in the days before
they went to Portugal.
I was interested to hear what your doctor was saying, what your medical expert, rather,
was saying about these chemical traces there being on the body. Is it possible for traces of dead bodies to still be on a
person`s fingers, on a person`s body, that long after they`ve touched them, a matter of weeks? We`re talking about 25 days
after Maddy went missing. They were on vacation for four or five days before she went missing, and she claims she`d been in
contact with dead bodies in the weeks running up to the time she went abroad.
GRACE: You know, that is an excellent
question. I`m going to go to Morrone, but hold on.
Paula Hancocks, where did that theory even come from? Did cadaver
dogs hit on the belongings or the clothing of the mom?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that`s what we`re
hearing over here, yes. When they actually went into the holiday apartment, the cadaver dogs did pick up a scent. Now, we
understand that, obviously, that was the British sniffer dogs. They brought them in.
But this was still a little
while into the investigation. This was not right at the beginning. And the Portuguese don`t have sniffer dogs. So, obviously,
this is when the British came in and tried to give their expertise and take DNA samples. That`s when they actually picked
up this scent.
GRACE: Dr. Morrone, that does not look good for the parents. I mean, come on. I`m not a scientist
like you. But if she had been exposed to approximately six dead bodies before she went on vacation, then she was on vacation
for a period of time, and then 25 days later they do these tests? Dr. Morrone, that doesn`t even make sense that that would
still be on her.
MORRONE: Let me explain this under a very short phrase: universal precautions. When you treat
patients, when you`re in autopsy, you have to scrub and clean so much to protect yourself. It`s universal precautions. There`s
no way she could have taken any component of six dead bodies to vacation. If there`s cadaverine present in a DNA sample, it`s
GRACE: Anne Bremner, doesn`t look good for Mom.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: ... universal
precautions that she follows, then why didn`t she follow them when she supposedly killed the baby?
not the question I asked you. Please answer the question I asked you.
BREMNER: Well, the thing is, this will be
a legal runaround, Nancy. She`s going to go through a whole extradition proceeding if she`s ever going to come back to Portugal.
And a defense to that is a want of probable cause. There`s a lot to be explained here for both sides.
Steve Greenberg, it`s not lost on me that they`ve hired an extradition expert, the guy that fought Pinochet`s extradition.
STEVE GREENBERG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If I was thought that the Portuguese police were trying to frame me for something
I didn`t do, I`d hire the best experts I could hire to defend me.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Julie in Michigan, hi,
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations. I know you`re going to make a wonderful mother.
pray. I pray.
CALLER: I`m sure you will. I`ve got a couple of things bothering me, Nancy. Dr. Morrone answered
part of the question about body fluids, because I was talking with my husband and mentioning that they rented the car 25 days
after she disappeared. And he said, how much blood would be left to be in the trunk, then? Not only that, Nancy, but do we
know if there was a refrigerator or freezer in their room that they were staying in?
GRACE: What do we know about
the room they were staying in, Paula Hancocks? I mean, they had the police over in the room the night she went missing, correct?
HANCOCKS: Yes, you would assume that they would have a fridge in that particular -- in that particular holiday apartment.
Now, the interesting thing was is that, after they did all the tests and gathered the information that they needed at the
scene, then that room was allowed to be rented out again. So that`s one thing that the Portuguese police have come under an
incredible amount of criticism for, renting out a crime scene. And, of course, you have more people going in, and then that
will mix up DNA samples. It`s a crime scene. You can`t rent it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A new development this Monday evening in the case of the search
for 4-year-old Madeleine. Portuguese media is reporting -- the police say they now have the 100 percent DNA match to Madeleine
in the rental car. Now, this is the rental car which Gerry and Kate McCann, the parents of Madeleine, rented 25 days after
they reported their daughter had gone missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Before we take you out to Provo,
Utah, and the missing BYU coed, back to the lines. Joann in New York, hi, Joann.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, love.
CALLER: I`m wondering, were the supposed friends that Madeleine`s parents were
dining with the night she disappeared ever questioned?
GRACE: To Larry Sutton with "People" magazine,
it`s my understanding they were.
LARRY SUTTON, STAFF EDITOR, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Yes, they were. In fact,
a lot of the details of the dinner party that they attended has been coming out. There were maybe eight to ten people. They
had maybe about ten bottles of wine that they shared between them. And, yes, they were spoken to, so there are a lot of witnesses
about what was going on that night. No witnesses about what was going on back in the room where the children were.
GRACE: Ten bottles of wine, eight people?
SUTTON: Well, you know, it`s a holiday. It`s a party.
Sounds like a big drunk to me. OK, Jan in Minnesota, hi, Jan.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations and I love your
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: Did anybody ever check the rental car that the people that previously
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former D.C. cop, how could that -- I mean, if baby Maddy`s fluid was in this
car, I mean, that kind of ix-nays the people that rented it before.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: It does, Nancy,
because did they know these people? I seriously doubt it. But going again, it sounds like something came out of this 11-hour
interview that led them to that particular car. You know, otherwise it sounds like the keystone cops in Portugal just wouldn`t
have taken it upon themselves to go take a look at this car.
GRACE: Yes, you know, if it were any other cops other
than the Portugal cops, I would put a lot more credence in it. I really need to know more about this DNA and what was said,
as Mike Brooks emphasized, in that 11-hour interview with the mom. Mike, very quickly, why do you keep going back to that
BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you know, as an investigator, I can tell you 11 hours is a long time. And there`s
going to be some discrepancies. And, you know, she says they`re trying to frame her. I don`t know, Nancy; I have to see the
transcripts to see what happens.
GRACE: Last week we told you about a missing BYU coed, Miss Cleverley. We now
have confirmed that her remains have been found at the foot of a 200-foot cliff. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Larry King, aired 10 September 2007
LARRY KING CNN.com
Divided House Grills Petraeus On Iraq; Missing Maddy's Parents Now Suspects
Aired September 10, 2007 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the top U.S. commander in Iraq comes to Washington with historic testimony
that America has been waiting to hear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS, COMMANDER, MULTI-NATIONAL FORCE-IRAQ:
I believe that we will be able to reduce our forces to the pre-surge level of brigade combat teams by next summer.
KING: Meanwhile, at least seven U.S. troops die today, bringing the American total close to 3,800.
then, news breaks again in the missing Madeleine story. Her parents are back home in England as suspects, given five days
to turn themselves into police in Portugal. Mom quoted saying she's being framed. Reports Madeleine's blood was found in a
car that parents rented weeks after reporting her disappearance.
Do police have enough evidence to make an arrest?
latest from England and Portugal, all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
* (report on Iraq story)
When we come back, the latest in the missing Madeleine story -- is the suspect mom claiming she's being
We'll live to England and Portugal next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE MCCANN: Please, please do not
hurt her. Please don't scare her. Please tell us where to find her or put her in a place of safety and let somebody know where
she is. We need our Madeleine. Sean and Emily need Madeleine and Madeleine needs us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within moments of landing in Britain, Gerry McCann once again insisted
that neither he nor Kate had any idea of what happened on May the 3rd.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GERRY MCCANN, MADELEINE'S
FATHER: Well, it's heartbreaking to return to the U.K. without Madeleine. It does not mean we're giving up our search for
her. As parents, we cannot give up on our daughter until we know what has happened. We have played no part in the disappearance
of our lovely daughter, Madeleine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Welcome back.
Portuguese police are apparently
handing this case over to the prosecutors, whatever that means. We'll find out as we go the Paula Hancocks, our CNN correspondent
in Praia Da Luz, Portugal.
And in Rothley, England is Adrian Finighan, CNN International anchor and correspondent.
with us in Salt Lake City is Ed Smart, the father of Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted from her home in June, 2002, and then
safely recovered nearly a year later. He has become friends with the McCann family and he will be with us for our major panel
But Paula Hancocks, what's the latest in Portugal?
What are -- what does this mean -- turning it over
to the prosecutors?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically, Larry, it means that all of the information
that police have gathered so far, all the DNA evidence and all the lengthy questioning that Kate and Gerry have undergone
will be put into a dossier. And that will be handed over to the prosecutor. The prosecutor then has read through, probably,
a tremendous amount of paperwork and decide one of three things -- is there enough evidence to charge Kate or Gerry, or both?
there a need to go and find more evidence and advise the police in a different direction?
Or, thirdly, should they
tell the police that this evidence simply doesn't stand and they should drop the fact that Kate and Gerry are formal suspects?
So -- and we don't know anything until we know what the prosecutor says, right?
HANCOCKS: Well, we heard nothing official
from the police themselves. But Portuguese media and British media -- some are reporting tonight that one of those -- the
DNA that was found in the rental car that the McCanns rented about 25 days after Madeleine was actually found, reported missing,
they say that that DNA is a 100 percent match to Madeleine. But, of course, there are conflicting reports on this at the moment.
This is all coming out in the last couple of hours. We're hoping, on Tuesday, to hear something more.
Finighan in Rothley, England, isn't this all still a bit speculative? ADRIAN FINIGHAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It
is, indeed. And the McCann camp have expressed frustration, Larry. The fact that they are now official suspects -- they've
got this, as the Portuguese call it arguida status, puts restrictions upon what they can say. They would love nothing more
than to come back and answer all of this speculation that's ending up in the media. The Portuguese police investigation, they
say, is leaking like a rusty tin bath. You've got all this information that's leaking out into the media.
would love to come back and answer some of this speculation, answer some of these questions. But because of this legal status
that's been placed upon them, this arguida status, this official suspect status, they can't do that right now.
Are the British generally supportive of them Adrian?
FINIGHAN: They are, indeed. Let me show you the local paper here,
There you go. This is "The Leicester Mercury." It's today's edition: "Violating Backing for the McCanns."
I think is the way you'd describe support around here, anyway, although it's unusual. You're now finding people -- I was walking
around the village today and there are little groups of people that you see chatting on the street. One subject they're talking
about -- the McCann family and Madeleine's disappearance.
And with all of this rumor and speculation, although the
British press is still behind the McCann camp, you've get all of this stuff coming out from Portugal -- I was looking today
to a lady who is a patient of Gerry McCann's. He's a heart surgeon, of course. And she was treated by him. And she was telling
me that you just don't know what to believe anymore. There's all of this rumor and speculation. You don't -- it's so hard
now to separate the facts -- the very few facts that we actually know about this case from all of the rumor and speculation.
Paula, do you know about the blood in the vehicle?
The question is whether it's 100 percent Maddy's or not?
Well, again, Larry, there's conflicting reports on that. We've heard some Portuguese media and some of the British tabloids
from Tuesday also saying that it was a 100 percent match for DNA, showing that the evidence the body of Madeleine was in that
But then, on the other hand, you have many -- much of the media throwing doubt on that, saying that it
can't be 100 percent, maybe about 80 percent. And this is something we're really not going to know for sure until this evidence
is publicized. And that's not going to be for some time. The prosecutor hasn't even seen this evidence yet, so we're not going
to see it for some time.
KING: Ed Smart will be joining us in the next segment. Thanks, Paula.
Ed will lead off the next segment and we'll meet our other guests, as well, when we return.
The McCanns have lawyered
Could they fight extradition to Portugal or is that too much in advance?
We really are working on a lot
of speculation here.
Geragos, as well, will join us, and former FBI profiler Candice DeLong.
We'll be right
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Madeleine McCann has become the face of a global campaign designed
to keep her plight in the international spotlight. This "Find Madeleine" music video was broadcast at a rugby World Cup game.
KING: Joining our discussion about Gerry and Kate McCann and their missing daughter,
Ed Smart remains with us. We'll bring him into the discussion momentarily.
By the way, as we look at Ed Smart, we are
reminded that this young girl may still be alive.
In Miami, Stacey Honowitz, Florida assistant state attorney. In
Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, defense attorney. In San Francisco, Candice DeLong, former FBI profiler. And here in New York with
us, Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, the forensic expert and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
Ed Smart, do you
think they're being railroaded?
ED SMART, FATHER OF ELIZABETH SMART: I think they are being railroaded. I just have
complete confidence that everything that they are being trumped up with, all of the rumors are rumors, and that, you know,
they had nothing to do with it.
KING: Stacey Honowitz, they have apparently lawyered up. Does this mean anything to
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: No, I mean I am not surprised that's when they got the status
of being a suspect, that's what happens in Portugal. The lawyer now has the opportunity to really represent them, to go in
when they were interviewed and go in to protect their rights. So I am not surprised by any of this.
KING: Mark, are
they being assumed guilty?
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. They are presumed guilty in Portugal at least. It
is nice or it's comforting to some degree that apparently in England, that is not totally the case.
But boy, it sure
gives you pause when you hear the one person say that even one of his patients doesn't know what to believe. This is a guy
who has dedicated his life to saving people and helping people and one of his patients now because of this whirlwind of publicity
has her own doubts about his guilt or innocence. That's, I think, one of the most troubling things about this trial by media.
Candice, why are they suspects?
CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, we have talked about --
a 4-year-old girl who they don't even know is dead.
DELONG: Right. They don't know that she is dead. Statistically
we talked about this before, the vast majority of the time a young child goes missing and/or is found to be murdered, the
vast majority of the time the person who did it is an adult primary care giver, and that usually is the parent.
it is a good place to start looking, and as Ed Smart will tell you, in all of these cases, the parents have to be eliminated
in the beginning of the investigation as having anything to do.
KING: But are they looking elsewhere?
I would certainly hope. There have been many stories in the media about this case of I think an expatriate Brit possibly living
in Portugal with his mother who has a history of violating children, and some other people, but in particular, that other
person. So, yes, they are looking elsewhere, but for some reason they now have focused on the mother.
KING: Dr. Kobilinsky,
what is your read?
DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSICS EXPERT: Well, this is very sad case. There is a missing young lady.
We don't know if she is deceased or not, and clearly, we are looking for evidence. They have to look in the hotel room and
see what they can find from that. Now we have this linkage to this vehicle, and we find what we are hearing is blood. And
that that blood matches the young lady. So the question is, how do you explain that? Is there any innocent way to explain
how we get this young lady's DNA in this vehicle.
KING: So they are a suspect?
KOBILINSKY: Absolutely. I think
as Candice said, they look at family members, and anybody who had a close relationship with the child. KING: Ed, what did
SMART: I said, you know, who rented the car before? I mean, who had access to, you know, plant something?
I just really, really disbelieve that there is this 100 percent evidence in there.
My understanding from Gerry as
I talked with him was they were having a very difficult time trying to take the DNA and analyze it, and that they were having
to do further analysis, and that is one of his greatest frustrations is that it was taking so long to try to determine it,
and you know, what are they trumping up?
KING: Stacey, if this were Miami and the police had investigated this crime
and put together a whole dossier, would they present it to you? Is that the way it would be done?
sometimes it could come to me directly or sometimes it would go to the grand jury. But what's going to happen is they are
going to present the dossier to the Portuguese prosecutor and that individual or that group of individuals has really a workload
ahead of them, because of all of the investigation that has gone on so far, and now maybe this forensic evidence. They have
a tough decision to decide if there is enough evidence to charge the mother.
GERAGOS: Well, Larry, can I just weigh
in for a second? One of the reasons that you have to suspend your belief in some of the reports is that when they start to
talk about 100 percent, there is no such thing.
All they do is that they can't exclude you, and then they have numbers,
depending upon what the markers are and the multiplication tables for DNA, so this idea that there's 100 percent match just
leads me to believe it is one more rumor out there that is probably unfounded and probably does not have, does not comport
with what the facts are.
If they start talking about 80 percent, well, you know what? A mother and daughter can share
80 percent of the markers in any kind of a DNA match. So all of this stuff seems to me at least to be a little bit premature.
KING: Dr. Kobilinsky is shaking his head.
KOBILINSKY: Yeah, the parents and the mother would share 50 percent
of the child's genetics. And in fact, when you do analyze a stain and do 13 loci, which is typically what is done in the country.
I don't know what is done in Portugal, but typically, that can give you a 100 percent match. If it is not the pristine --
GERAGOS: It is not the case.
KING: One at a time.
GERAGOS: It is just not the case. They go to 16
loci and they will never -- there is not an expert around that will tell you that it is 100 percent. That is not the case.
KOBILINSKY: I am sorry, I have to disagree with you.
GERAGOS: OK, well, we disagree.
KOBILINSKY: If they are
talking about a pristine sample, if they're doing 16 loci, if they get a match across the board and no degradation or partial
profiles, there is 100 percent match.
KING: Let me get a break and we'll come back with more on this extraordinary
case that has captured worldwide attention. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICKY GILL, MCCANN FAMILY FRIEND:
I think she is out there somewhere and I think that I'd like to think it is a phone call away.
SUSAN HEALY, KATE MCCANN'S
MOTHER: It is ludicrous. It is bizarre. We can't understand where this has come from.
PHILOMENA MCCANN, MADELEINE'S
AUNT: Madeleine is missing, and we have to strive to look for her. We have to get this investigation back on track.
KING: We are back. We have a phone call for the group. St. Louis, Missouri, hello.
KING: Hi. Go ahead.
CALLER: My question would be, if I am watching the Madeleine story,
and I have been crying and pretty upset. I'm an African- American and I have been pretty much disturbed by what is going on,
and my question would be, I haven't seen a lot of emotion out of the mother or the father, and I was just wondering, am I
the only one who doesn't see that?
SMART: When I have talked with Gerry on the phone, I have heard
a lot of emotion. I have not -- you know, seen him in person, but I have heard a lot of emotion, and a lot of frustration,
a lot of, you know, just wanting to find Madeleine in the worst possible way. So I, you know, I haven't seen Gerry and Kate
on all of the pieces. They are amazingly composed. But I have heard him in a bad way.
KING: Candice, what would be
the theory if parents, forget the McCanns, were to take the life of a 4-year-old -- would the theory be that it is an accident?
Usually it is in that not an accident that their back was turned and the child fell down the stairs, but an accident in that
they might have been spanking the child or hitting the child or doing sometimes shaking the child if it is a young child in
anger, and something happens that they go too far and it results in a skull fracture or something that causes their death.
Stacey, would the fact that they are both physician bode in their favor?
HONOWITZ: Well, I think that is what everybody
is having a tough time with, because when you see a case like this and you hear that the parents are both professionals, it
is hard to put your arms around the fact that maybe they could have done this to that child.
And I'm not saying of
course, because we don't know the evidence is, but there have been cases, Larry, in the past, where you have people that who
you would never suspect would do anything like this. And you can say, you really can never judge a book by its cover, so it
is hard for the public to imagine that two physicians could ever engage in conduct such as this if in fact it is true that
they are involved.
KING: Mark, do you believe that the police are also looking elsewhere?
GERAGOS: Do I believe
that they are? I don't know whether I believe that they are. I think that, well, I have been disturbed and most recently about
what I consider to be kind of this drum beat by the police to incriminate these two, and that bothers me.
says, there have been cases obviously where people either were great actors or that nobody ever suspected them, but there
is also just as easily been a lot of cases where they suspected the wrong people, and I remember during the Smart case, there
were a lot of people who were pointing fingers in the direction of people in the Smart family at the time.
know, one of the things that I think that is irresponsible of the police and the Portuguese police here is that they should
not be letting all of this stuff out. There should not be this steady drum beat or drip, drip, drip of pointing the fingers
at the parents.
Because god forbid if they are innocent, can you imagine how they must feel on top of everything else
not having your daughter, not knowing what happened to her, hoping she is still alive while somebody is still accusing you
of this? It has got to be the worst thing of the world
KING: And Dr. Kobilinsky, is forensics going the play a key
factor in this?
KOBILINSKY: Forensics doesn't solve all of the issues. It is going to be very important because you
have to explain how her blood got into the vehicle. It could after all have been innocent. It could have been a case of secondary
transfer where either Kate or Gerry transferred her blood into that vehicle and it wasn't a direct transfer. Anything is possible.
KING: Vancouver, British Columbia, hello?
CALLER: Yes, I want to ask, has anybody asked themselves with the
world paparazzis and tourists, do you think that they could have moved anywhere, any kind of body? And especially 25 days
later when they rented this car? They didn't even not only have the European, but they had the American and every country's
paparazzi. They couldn't move two feet.
KING: Is that a good point?
GERAGOS: Great point.
KOBILINSKY: I think it is a very good point. And they are really innocent until proven guilty, and they haven't been
KING: Let me get a break and be back with a few more moments and then by buddy, Jack Cafferty will
be joining us. Don't go away.
KING: OK. Stacey Honowitz, where do we go from here?
Well, we're going to all wait and see what happens. The prosecutor tomorrow or the band of prosecutors is going to go over
the 11 hours worth of statements to see if there is any inconsistencies between her statement and his statement.
everyone that they were with that might, their statements were taken, the forensic evidence. I mean, there is a boatload of
stuff for this prosecutor to go through to make a decision.
And the last question that came in is a great question,
because the prosecutor also has to say, what behavior could be reasonable? Is it reasonable that everybody the world was watching
and they were able to hide this body and then transfer it? So these are all questions that the prosecutor is going to have
to ask themselves to make a determination as to whether to charge her.
KING: Let me get one more call in. Darien, Georgia,
CALLER: Hi. My question is, who are testing the bodily fluid or DNA against and could it be a sibling's DNA
that they found in the trunk of the car?
KOBILINSKY: That is a good question. Siblings clearly
have a close relationship with their siblings, but you can easily differentiate one person from another, even if they have
this close family relationship. KING: Mark Geragos, where do you think it is going to go?
GERAGOS: Well, I can't imagine
-- I guess we could always be shocked, but I just can't imagine that they are going to bring charges in this case.
know, besides the fact that as the caller said 25 days later, the whole world is there. Remember, on that evening there were
people that were there that saw them, that were present during virtually all of the time period. They have got a timeline
here that is virtually indestructible.
So it just seems to me like desperation move by the police, and my hope is that
that the prosecution gives it right back to them and tells them, you know, enough is enough, and go actually solve this case.
KING: Ed, do you think it is going to turn out all right for your friends?
SMART: I think it is. You know,
I think that the police -- one of the things that Gerry really felt is that this whole thing has come to a standstill about
six weeks ago and nothing has really moved forward other than trying to focus on them, trying to focus on the DNA, and I really
think that, you know, they need to get focused on finding Madeleine, and just, you know, cut this out, and get moving.
Let's hope. Thank you all very, very much. Ed Smart, Stacey Honowitz, Mark Geragos, Candice DeLong and Dr. Larry Kobilinsky.
Jack Cafferty is next with us, he's got a new book out there, "It's Getting Ugly Out There." He's always outspoken.
He gets in the ring, makes a punching bag out of the Washington status quo. He is with us when we return.
Nancy Grace, Aired 11 September 2007
NANCY GRACE CNN.com
Portuguese Prosecutor Refers McCann Case to Judge for Decision
Aired September 11, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A beautiful 3-year-old little girl, baby Maddy, reportedly
snatched during a luxury resort vacation. Her parents party at a dinner 100 yards away at the time, leaving baby Maddy and
twin siblings home alone. Police name Maddy`s own mom and dad crime suspects.
Headlines tonight, stunning developments continue at a rapid pace. Now we learn police turn over 1,000-plus
pages of evidence and prosecutors take their case to a top judge, that judge to make the final charging decision, police reportedly
seeking charges of homicide and concealing the baby`s body.
And tonight, reports that baby Maddy`s DNA, possibly blood,
found in three distinct places, one under the carpet in the trunk of the McCann rental car, two, another spot in that same
rental car, three, on the windowsill on the McCann luxury rental condo. Police now refuse to confirm a 100 percent DNA match
to baby Maddy. But this combined with newly released evidence that huge amounts of Maddy`s hair found inside that car rented
by Maddy`s family 25 days after she goes missing -- hair. And as we go to air tonight, word that police are searching a local
church in the baby Maddy mystery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Madeleine McCann has been missing for
four months. But in one day today, a number of significant developments. First of all, the police delivered their report to
the prosecutor here in Portimao. Then they quickly passed it to a local judge. It could mean that he is aiming to impose respel
(ph) restrictions on Kate and Gerry McCann, might mean that he`s applying for a warrant, or it might mean that he`s looking
for new surveillance permission of some kind.
It comes after unconfirmed claims that Madeleine McCann`s DNA has been
found in the car hired by her parents after she disappeared and that that DNA is a 99 percent match. The Portuguese police
point out DNA results are never conclusive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
First, breaking news.
Tonight, prosecutors take their case to a top judge for a charging decision in the baby Maddy mystery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that it is an investigation that`s lasted more than four weeks. There will be a
lot of paperwork, and also, there have been some very lengthy interviews with Gerry and Kate McCann, 11 hours last Thursday
for Kate, followed by another 4 hours the next morning, and 8 hours for Gerry that afternoon before both of them became formal
suspects in the disappearance of their own daughter.
Now, we understand the prosecutor will be going through these
papers, and he could decide one of three things. He could decide either now there is enough evidence to charge either Kate,
Gerry or both of them for the disappearance of their daughter, or he could decide that more evidence is needed. Or alternatively,
he could decide that the police have gone down the wrong avenue and need to change their line of investigation.
FEMALE: Gerry McCann, Madeleine`s father, had posted a message. He posted a blog on the Web site that was created for Madeleine
shortly after she disappeared. On the message, he said he and his wife, Kate, had nothing to do with her abduction.
MCCANN, FATHER OF MISSING GIRL: We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter, Madeleine.
MALE: The parents may have left Portugal, but their future is in the hands of the Portuguese legal system.
GRACE: Major developments happening as the hours go by. We now know that prosecutors take their case to a top
judge for a final charging decision, police handing over 1,000 pages over to prosecutors, that case now in the hands of a
Let`s go straight out to Emily Chang, CNN correspondent in Rothley, England. What is the latest?
CHANG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, the latest is that the case has been handed over to a Portuguese judge, who will do
one of many things, possibly review the possibility of charges, possibly order fresh searches, possibly order further questioning.
the mood here in Rothley -- and I should say that we`re live down the street from the McCann household. They have asked us
to respect their privacy, and we are honoring their wishes. But I should say that this is a very ordinary, very suburban town,
the McCanns a very ordinary family, and they`ve come back under extraordinary circumstances, very, very extraordinary circumstances.
They are perhaps the most widely recognized couple in the world right now. And for a very quiet town, they`ve taken this in
stride. They`ve been widely supportive of the McCanns over the past four months.
But with these latest developments,
the McCanns being named as formal suspects earlier this week and today the case being handed over to a prosecutor, the villagers,
I would say, are very confused.
GRACE: You know -- to Jerry Lawton, reporter with "The Daily Star" -- the case has
been handed over by prosecutors to a judge. Jerry Lawton, I want to talk to you about the three locations -- I want to talk
about the facts. I want us to decide for ourselves what we think because what does a judge sitting up on a bench know more
than police and prosecutors about, Do you need a fresh search, Do you need to reinterview witnesses?
The three spots
of alleged DNA, tell me where they are and what we know about them, Jerry.
JERRY LAWTON, "THE DAILY STAR": Well, Nancy,
what we know at the moment -- and the police have given a briefing today. And they have said that they have got an 88 percent
match on Maddy`s DNA found in the spare wheel recess in the boot of the hired car that the McCanns rented 25 days after she
disappeared. Apparently, body fluids were discovered in that recess beneath the upholstery in the trunk of the car.
also recovered, apparently, from that car considerable strands of Madeleine`s hair, which are basically -- they say, couldn`t
-- the amount is so large that they could not simply have been transferred there from her clothes or from any of her possessions.
They say sadly that they must have come from her body.
GRACE: OK. Jerry, I`m sorry. You cut out on me. Would you repeat
that last sentence, please?
LAWTON: Yes, sorry. Basically, they found considerable chunks of Madeleine`s hair, strands
of Madeleine`s hair in the car. And according to Portuguese police, the quantity is so considerable that it could not have
come from indirect transfer, from Madeleine`s clothes and possessions. According to Portuguese police, it must have come from
Madeleine`s body, direct contact with Madeleine`s body inside the hired car.
GRACE: Joining us now, CNN correspondent,
in addition to Jerry Lawton and Emily Change, Paula Hancocks is joining us from Praia da Luz. Thank you for being with us.
Paula, chunks of hair? Now, I prosecuted a lot of cases where we would have a hair transfer or you would find hair on the
fibers of a car, on the sheets of a bed. That is very common. But Paula, chunks of hair, not common. Very unusual, if it`s
to be believed, Paula.
And also, Paula Hancocks, if you could tell me about the three different locations there is
alleged baby Maddy DNA. I know about in the trunk of the car, under the carpet where you keep the spare tire. OK. That`s unusual
in itself. But what are the other two locations? And tell me about the chunks of hair.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT:
Well, yes, we`re hearing from Portuguese and British media, as well, about this -- the hair, and the fact that also not all
the DNA results have come back. You know, they were taken to Britain and they`re still waiting, these Portuguese police, for
some of those DNA results. But certainly, the media is reporting that it could not have just been maybe one particular hair,
but it is expected to be something more significant than this.
The police, we`ve been calling them. They are unable
to confirm this. It is illegal for them to confirm this. They`re under a secrecy law, so it`s impossible. And of course, the
McCanns themselves are bound by the law. They can`t talk now. They`re formal suspects. Of course, much of that forensic evidence
is coming from the holiday apartment, as well. That`s crucial, the fact that this is where Madeleine was last seen.
OK. So the three spots of DNA, to my understanding -- and correct me if I`m wrong -- first of all, under the carpet, in the
trunk where the spare tire is kept. Number two, another spot within that same rental car. Number three, the windowsill of
the luxury rental condo where they were vacationing. Is that your information, as well, Paula?
HANCOCKS: That is the
information that we`re getting from the Portuguese media and also from the British media. The police themselves, as I say,
are just legally bound. They cannot confirm. Every time we phone them and ask them, they have to deny it. It`s a legal obligation
And of course, we`ve heard from British and Portuguese media, as well, that the church is not necessarily
out of the picture at this point. This is the church where the McCanns took much comfort from. They went there on a number
of occasions. And certainly, we`ve heard rumors from the Portuguese media that this was being searched, as well
actually been down there, and there`s no indication it`s being searched at this point. But this is the kind of case it is.
These kind of rumors really do swirl around quite out of hand, really.
GRACE: Well, Paula, don`t police have to get
a warrant to search? And if there is a warrant to search, isn`t that a public document? Why should there have to be a rumor?
They`re not physically out (INAUDIBLE) the church. We`ve been down there not so long ago to check on that, and they`re not
there. There`s some building works going on behind the church. They`re building a house for the church itself. But that`s
actually not happening. The only authorization the prosecutors need at this point is from the judge.
Now, as we know,
the police got the evidence. They passed it on to the prosecutor. The prosecutor in record time, really, passed it on to the
judge. And what Portuguese and British media are reporting is that they want to seize evidence. They want urgent authorization
from the judge to seize a piece of evidence. Now, we don`t know what that is. No one knows what that is, at this point. But
clearly, the prosecutor thinks it`s very key to this case.
GRACE: So let me get this straight, Paula. In their system
-- everyone, as you know by now, the McCanns were vacationing in Portugal at a luxury resort. The night baby Maddy went missing
-- that we know of that night -- that night, the parents were dining at a dinner party about the size of a football length
away from their three children that they left alone there in the luxury rental, although we believe that there was a baby-sitting
service there at the resort. They did not use that. So long story short, she goes missing that night.
Paula, are you
telling me that in their system at Portugal, you have to go to a judge, much like we do, every time you seize evidence?
At this point, yes. Now, the police have all the evidence they feel they need to incriminate somebody -- we don`t know who
-- or to at least give it to the prosecutors and say to the prosecutors, Look what we have, is this enough for a case? The
prosecutor then has to go to the judge, who really is just an approval judge. He has to authorize that, Yes, you are allowed
to either search that particular property -- you are allowed to tap that particular phone.
And also, the prosecutors
would have to go to the judge if they wanted to change the status of Mr. and Mrs. McCann from "arguida," from formal suspects.
If they wanted to change that in any way, they need the approval of the judge. But it is the prosecutor itself that is calling
the shots. It`s just an extra level, a safeguard, if you like.
GRACE: Paula, question. Have you heard reports that
there was some type of an argument between Mrs. McCann and baby Maddy overheard by a neighbor shortly before she went missing?
That`s not one that I`ve heard, I must admit. Covering this story, you hear some unbelievable rumors and speculation, much
of which you just dismiss out of hand. But that`s not actually one that I`ve heard, at this point.
GRACE: Well, frankly
-- to Jerry Lawton with "The Daily Star" joining us from England -- reports like that, that surface this late in the game,
I think lose credibility. If a neighbor would have heard an argument like that between the mom and the daughter, it would
seem to me, to maintain any credibility at all, they would have come forward at the beginning, not wait -- this happened on
May the 3rd -- not wait all these months and go, Oh, yes, I think I heard something. To me, that greatly hurts the credibility
of such a report.
Jerry Lawton, with "The Daily Star," what more can you tell us about the evidence?
Well, what we`ve heard, Nancy, is that an 81-year-old British woman by the name of Pamela Fenn (ph) lives in the apartment
directly above the apartment that the McCanns were staying in. And what she has told Portuguese police is that two days before
Madeleine disappeared, that she heard a young girl screaming for her father between -- for 90 minutes, until the -- until
11:45 PM, screaming, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, from inside the McCanns`s apartment.
She was concerned (INAUDIBLE) resort
staff. And the screaming only ended when the parents returned at 11:45 PM, indicating that the child had been left there.
That child, she presumes, she has told the police, was Madeleine. And she was concerned enough at the time to raise this with
the staff at the Ocean resort. That is apparently what she`s told police in a sworn statement, which forms part of that evidence
bundle that is now with the judge.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Susan Moss, family lawyer, child advocate
out of New York, Ray Giudice, a veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and Joe Lawless, former prosecutor,
veteran defense attorney and author out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction.
You know -- out to you, Sue Moss -- I was
saying that if you don`t come forward for this long, that kind of hurts your credibility. But according to Jerry Lawton, this
elderly -- this senior citizen called the resort that night and says, Hey, something`s wrong with this kid beneath me.
MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: What are the Portuguese police doing? They have bumbled this case from day one. We`re hearing about
leads. We`re hearing about evidence that are weeks and weeks old, yet this was never examined or brought public earlier before?
I`ll tell you something, if they only have an 88 percent match, they`re not going to be able to prove that Mom made the snatch.
It sounds like what they are doing is now going back and looking at the evidence and trying to create a theory, rather than
doing what they should have been doing, investigating every lead.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Mike Brooks, you and I prosecuted
cases -- not to date ourselves, of course -- for many, many years before we would have DNA backup. DNA -- a DNA match is just
a tiny piece of a big picture.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It is, Nancy. And 88 percent
is not bad. Now, it depend if it`s mitochondrial DNA or nuclear DNA. We heard Dr. Morrone explain that last night. You know,
I`m not a doctor, but I can tell you one`s better than the other. So 88 percent is not bad. But I can tell you, it sounds
like the Portugal police have bungled this from the beginning. Thank God the Brits got involved.
MCCANN: Our return is with the full agreement of the Portuguese authorities and police. Portuguese law
prohibits us from commenting further on the police investigation. Despite there being so much we wish to say, we are unable
to do so except to say this. We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter, Madeleine.
GRACE: Local prosecutors hand their case over to a top judge for a formal charging decision in the baby Maddy
Out to the lines. Amy in Ohio. Hi, Amy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on the twins.
Can you believe it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I can`t. You`ll be a wonderful mother.
GRACE: God willing. What`s
your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I`ve heard a lot about the word "bodily fluids." What does
GRACE: Out to Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist. We know it`s blood. What else could it be 25
days after a death?
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, it`s possible that we`re talking about serum, which
is the fluid portion of blood. When you remove the solid particles, you have serum left. That`s a possibility. It could be
fluids of decomposition. It could be saliva. It could be a lot of different things, but we have the chemistry to test.
To Dr. Gregory Davis, medical examiner joining us out of Louisville. Dr. Davis, welcome. Could the fluids be as a result of
the decomposition of the body?
DR. GREGORY DAVIS, MEDICAL EXAMINER, KENTUCKY COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: Very easily. It could
be something called bloody purge, which is a blood- tinged fluid that often comes out of the mouth and nose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Around the village, while support is unstinting for them, people
are just now beginning to have their doubts. I was talking to one lady today, a heart patient of Gerry McCann`s. He`s a heart
surgeon, of course. She was treated by him. And she was saying with all of this rumor and speculation now, it`s difficult
to separate fact from fiction. You just don`t know what to believe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We now learn prosecutors
have handed their case over to charging judge. And tonight it is revealed that huge chunks of hair matching baby Maddy found
in that rental car.
Holly in Maryland. Hi, Holly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
Thank you, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering, if they think that the parents had something to do with
this, what kind of safety are they taking for these two other little babies that they have?
GRACE: Excellent question.
Out to Paula Hancocks. Is it true that there has been consideration of taking the twins away?
HANCOCKS: I don`t think
so at this point, Nancy. Certainly, the social services in Britain has become involved, as they have to, when two parents
become formal suspects in a criminal investigation.
HANCOCKS: So they`ve certainly been `round to
the house. But at this point, I don`t think there`s any worry of that. We think that`s why they left -- that`s probably why
they left Portugal, to make sure the children were with their family.
GRACE: Emily Chang, have you heard otherwise?
Well, yesterday, there were social workers here meeting with police to discuss that very thing, the welfare of the twins.
It was a significant development. But I should say it`s procedural in a situation like this, where the parents have been named
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know detectives did gather forensic
material, but there`s been no confirmation that a close DNA match with Madeleine has been found. The Portuguese police themselves
point out DNA results are never conclusive.
So were Kate and Gerry McCann bugged by detectives in order to gain more
evidence? Gerry McCann does believe detectives have been listening to their phone calls and reading their e-mails, and it
is possible under Portuguese law. He and Kate McCann have denied the allegations throughout, allegations which must now be
weighed up by officials here. The parents may have left Portugal, but their future is in the hand of the Portuguese legal
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And what we know tonight, huge chunks of hair, baby Maddy`s hair, found in
a car rented by the McCann family 25 days after they report the baby missing. We also learned three spots, three separate
spots allegedly with her DNA and that local prosecutors have handed their case over to what is called a charging judge to
make the final charging decision, over 1,000 pages of documents.
Out to the lines, Mary Ann in New York. Hi, Mary
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, wonderful show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear.
CALLER: Quick question to you, this
beautiful little girl, are they still looking for her? It seems there`s so much focus on the parents right now, and nobody
is talking about finding this beautiful baby.
GRACE: Excellent question, Mary Ann. Paula Hancocks, any word on the
continuing search for baby Maddy?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, we`re hearing reports that they
are going to start the search again and start searching possibly in different areas to where they did before. And that would
suggest that it did stop when they actually thought the Portuguese police believed that it was the parents who were involved,
so they thought that they were looking for a body. Certainly that`s what the McCann family is terrified about, not only the
fact they`re suspects in their own daughter`s disappearance, but the fact that nobody is assuming she`s still alive in the
Portuguese police and nobody is looking for her.
GRACE: Back to Emily Chang in Rothley, England, who has told us that
the local authorities have met regarding the twins still in the custody of the McCanns regarding their safety. What can you
tell me about the money? I believe it`s close to $2 million raised as a reward and to investigate the case. Do the parents
still have access to that money for their legal defense?
EMILY CHANG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, it`s now more than
$2 million. And technically, yes, the McCanns do have access to that money because it is a private fund. However, that is
subject to a group of trustees who run that fund, and those trustees include family friends, some relatives, and prominent
people in the community. It will be up to them whether they can use that money.
GRACE: To Jerry Lawton with "The Daily
Star," what`s the police theory, that baby Maddy was killed and then, 25 days later, when they rented the car, they moved
the body? And another question to you, Jerry, if you know the answer, when they went to go see the pope in Rome -- I believe
that`s when they rented the rental car -- was that the first time they had left the area for an extended period of time?
LAWTON, REPORTER: Well, Nancy, no, it`s not the first time they`d left the area. Gerry had briefly flown home shortly afterwards,
leaving Kate and the children in Portugal. And he flew home to basically launch the campaign and the worldwide search for
Madeleine. But it was only a brief trip to England, at which he visited the family home for the first time, a very emotional
visit, which was captured on TV in England.
At that stage, he visited the green in Rothley, which had been decked
out in ribbons, flowers and tributes to his missing daughter. He visited that house, returned to Portugal, and then described
on his Internet blog what a moving and emotional experience it had been. As a result of that, the couple virtually made a
decision there and then not to return to England. They stayed in a different part of the resort to start with...
So, Jerry, would this have been where they went to see the pope together when they rented that rental car? I`m trying to get
to the police theory. I know that they are -- from what they are doing, I can surmise their theory is the body was moved when
they rented that rental car 25 days after baby Maddy was reported missing. From what I`m hearing from you...
The police say, Nancy, yes...
GRACE: Hold on. From what I`m hearing from you, when they went to Rome to see the pope,
it was the first time the both of them had left, police theory, the first time both of them had left the body unattended,
and that would be the time they would want to move it. Is that where police are headed, Jerry?
LAWTON: It appears
to be the case, Nancy. They rented the hired car the day before they flew together to Rome to see the pope. That car was rented
from Faro airport in Portugal.
And the police theory appears to be that, until that point, the body had been kept
close to the apartment that they`ve hired and that, shortly after they rented that car, that body was then moved to another
location. They`re hunting for two separate body locations.
GRACE: So there was certainly no danger that the police
were going to find it if it`s right there by the apartment under their theory. Back out to the lines, Janet in Louisiana.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Isn`t it likely that Maddy`s two
younger siblings would have very similar DNA?
GRACE: Similar, but not exact. Let`s unleash the lawyers again, Susan
Moss, Ray Giudice, Joe Lawless. You know, Ray, 88 percent match of a transfer. Let`s explain what a transfer is. Transfer
is this. Here is a producer, hug, wonderful. Now, his fiber off his suit is on my shirt, maybe not a lot, but some, maybe
a hair, maybe a crumb. Something from him is now on me. That`s a transfer. It`s just like that. But, Ray, let`s think about
this thing, reportedly an 88 percent DNA match. Think about the location, Ray Giudice.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:
GRACE: In the trunk where the spare tire is?
GIUDICE: Nancy, if that 88 percent DNA match was the only
or the best piece of evidence, I would feel pretty good on the defense side. But what it`s looking like it`s one of many pieces
of evidence that are being stitched together to support the theory that you are talking about, that the body was hidden and
then transferred in this rental car 24, 25 days later. And I think that`s the real significance of the 88 percent DNA test,
is the revisiting of all these people`s conduct and actions in those months before that body may have been moved.
And to Mike Brooks, Mike, something you said last night really intrigued me from a legal point of view, from an evidentiary,
probative point of view, and I think you`re right, the fact that we did not see cops turn on the McCanns until the mom gave
an 11-hour Q&A session with the cops.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: That`s exactly right, Nancy. Something
had to have come out of that interview. I mean, me, as a cop, I`ve done long, long interviews before, and people always change
their stories during that interview. You know, she says, "They want me to lie, I`m being framed." I don`t think so, Nancy.
Something came out of that interview that led the investigators to follow these different leads. And I`m glad that the Brits
got involved because, Nancy, they brought in dogs, cadaver dogs, and they had a positive hit inside of that condo.
You know, another thing to you, Joe Lawless, he`s right, the fact that the mom is saying that she had come in contact with
the dead as part of her practice, I don`t know, that struck me wrong. On the other hand, Joe Lawless, you know, we are hearing
a lot from the Portuguese police, who have had one misstep after the next -- I really doesn`t know which way to go on this
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what we`re hearing, though, are unsubstantiated rumors from, quote,
"sources close to the investigation" in a country where police aren`t supposed to do it. They`re leaking information. They`re
trying to create an atmosphere of guilt. And I haven`t heard a single solitary scrap of evidence of any kind indicating anything
along the lines of these people killing their child, let alone having the bright idea, "Oh, let`s drive to go see the pope
and, while we`re there, dump our baby daughter." This is something out of Alice in Wonderland. There`s just no evidence to
GRACE: I don`t know if it`s that far. If any of these facts are true, I think prosecutors may have a
case, but they`re already backpedaling on the DNA. To Dorothy in Virginia, hi, Dorothy.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I was just
curious to wondering if, who rented the car before the parents did?
GRACE: Why? What is your point on that, Dorothy?
CALLER: Well, just saying, whoever rented the car, what if that was the murderer and it just so happened that the
parents rented the same car that whoever took the child did?
GRACE: OK, that is quite a roll of the dice.
GRACE: That the person that rented the car killed the baby, then the parents rented it. What about it, Paula
HANCOCKS: We have actually spoke to the manager at the local car company where the McCanns rented that car
a little earlier on today, and they said that they could confirm that they had rented it. They couldn`t give us any details
of who had rented it before. And we asked them why. We said, "Is it because it`s company policy or because the police are
telling you to say something?" And he said, the police are telling us to keep quiet. We can`t tell you anything. So surely
this is something the police have thought of, as well.
back. We now know that the prosecution in the baby Maddy case has handed their case over to a charging judge. I want to go
out to a very special guest joining us, Dr. William July, psychologist and author. Dr. July, if the parents had anything to
do with this, why would they stay in the jurisdiction of Portugal where this resort is and go on TV and beg for help? It seems
like, if they had anything to do with it, then high-tail it out of there and get home as fast as they could.
JULY, PSYCHOLOGIST: This is behavior of interest. What`s happening is the behavior is going to tell us the story. All we have
to do is sit back and read the behavior like a book.
At first, their behavior looked consistent with that of people
who didn`t do anything, but now the story is turning. And as things are turning, they`re starting to take a sort of a defensive
posture. And as that happens, you start to wonder, as a psychologist, questions start popping up in my head about why people
would start to change as the chain of events have changed.
GRACE: To change their behavior. And I`ve often found,
Doctor, that behavioral evidence -- we saw it in the Scott Peterson case, is the perfect example -- is some of the strongest
evidence out there for those people that don`t believe DNA. For instance, about DNA, to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, an expert
in his field, forensic scientist, how could the location or the amount of the DNA rule out a transfer, a simple transfer?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I don`t think it can. Obviously, if you have a great deal of material, that
becomes suspicious. A little tiny fleck of blood could be innocently deposited; a larger stain becomes very suspicious. I
think the real issue, those clumps of hair, because when a body decomposes you could lose clumps of hair, not individual strands
that could be transferred by contact.
GRACE: Interesting, Dr. Kobilinsky. To Dr. Gregory Davis, medical examiner,
joining us out of Louisville, Kentucky, is that true? As the body decomposes, hair can fall out more easily in chunks?
GREGORY DAVIS, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Quite so. It easily falls out as a function of time. Just by manipulation of a body, it could
come apart, come off the scalp.
GRACE: Everybody, in this case, we know the prosecution has now handed the case over.
Let`s go quickly to the lawyers, Sue Moss, Ray Giudice, Joe Lawless. Ray, there are a lot of coincidences in this case stacking
up against the McCanns. I`m certainly not ready to call it yet in light of the Portuguese police track record.
No, I agree with you completely. I`m not saying these folks are guilty of anything. I`m just saying that, in light of the
positive DNA, it`s starting to look like the facts need to be revisited.
GRACE: Very quickly, everyone, I want to
give you an update on another case. An assistant principal remembers to take hot doughnuts into the other teachers but forgets
the hot car her little girl is sitting in, strapped in a car seat, and dies. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALE: The West Clermont local school superintendent Gary Brooks stuck with policy, accepting no public comment on whether
Glen Este Middle School Assistant Principal Brenda Nesselroad-Slaby should get her job back after forgetting her child in
her SUV for hours last month, where the child died from the heat. With the board behind closed doors, emotions from the audience
erupted on both sides.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did not do it intentionally!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no,
she left her child in the car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether a child died or not, I want to know where her consequences
are. She`s been let go. She`s not been found guilty. She`s been let go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I just told you,
between her God and herself, she is suffering a lot of consequences.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Bill Rinehart,
reporter with 700 WLW Radio. Why haven`t there been charges?
BILL RINEHART, REPORTER: The prosecutor reviewed the
police report. And while the police suggested that Brenda Slaby should face child endangerment charges, the prosecutor said
he could not in good faith take it to a grand jury and present it as a criminal case. He said there was not criminal intent
GRACE: OK, it`s not criminal intent to kill. It`s criminal intent to do the deed, which is leave the child
in the car, or negligent intent. Very quickly, what about the state A.G., Bill Rinehart? Anybody going to the state A.G. on
RINEHART: No one has gone to the state level, but a local law professor from the University of Cincinnati this
morning suggested that the U.S. district attorney do it, and they say they do not have jurisdiction.
GRACE: Very quickly,
everyone, we`ll be right back on the story. But, first, "CNN Heroes."
Nancy Grace, aired 08 October 2007
NANCY GRACE CNN.com
Mystery of Madeleine McCann Disappearance Still UnsolvedAired October
8, 2007 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
GRACE, HOST: A beautiful 3-year-old little girl, baby Maddy, reportedly snatched during a luxury vacation resort. Her parents
party down at a dinner 100 yards away, leaving baby Maddy and twin siblings home alone. Tonight, the baby Maddy mystery continues.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the last place 3-year-old Madeleine McCann was seen
alive, the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, Portugal. Madeleine and her family, on vacation from England, spent the afternoon
of May 3 by the hotel pool. This exclusive video is the first we`ve seen inside the resort grounds. Madeleine`s mom, Kate,
says her little girl told her it was the best day she`d ever had. This smiling picture would be the last taken of Madeleine
before she vanished just hours later.
(on camera): Much of what the police know is still a mystery to us, in part because
of a Portuguese law that makes it illegal to talk about a current investigation. But details of that night have emerged and
could hold the key to the case. Through various reports, here`s what we`ve learned.
(voice-over): Around 6:00 o`clock
that evening, Gerry and Kate McCann say they took Madeleine and their 2-year-old twins back to this apartment. According to
police, what happened to Madeleine after that last sighting is unknown. The McCanns say they put the three kids to bed around
7:30 in a room laid out like this one. Close to 8:30, the parents say they left the children alone in the apartment to join
a group of friends at a nearby tapas restaurant.
KATE MCCANN, MOTHER: I think it`s quite similar to, on a summer`s
evening at home, eating in your garden while the children are in their bed. You know, it`s that close.
restaurant is located within the resort. Michael (ph) and Susan Cooper (ph) are now renting the unit right next door to where
the McCanns stayed. The Coopers don`t know the McCanns but let us out on their balcony to see that the tapas bar is within
eyesight of the apartment. But...
(on camera): If someone was crying inside this apartment, would you hear them at
MICHAEL COOPER, STAYING AT RESORT: No.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): A waiter who served the table that
night tells CNN the McCanns and their seven friends were not drinking as heavily as has been reported but did have some pints
of beer, cocktails and a few bottles of wine. At about 9:00 o`clock, Gerry McCann says he got up to check on the children
and then returned to the table. Some time after 9:15, one of the dinner guests, who was checking on her own daughter, says
she saw a man walking away from the resort carrying a small child. The McCanns say it could have been the kidnapper, but the
police are questioning the woman`s account.
(on camera): At around 9:30, one of the McCanns` friends came back to the
apartment to check on the children, but apparently, just listened at the door. Thirty minutes later, Kate McCann herself went
to see how her children were doing. She went inside the apartment and told police that Madeleine was gone, the window to the
(voice-over): This is what Gerry McCann told his sister.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said that Madeleine
had been abducted. She`s not the type of wee girl to wander off. They`d been checking every half an hour on the children.
Kate McCann returned to the table screaming that Madeleine had been taken.
GERRY MCCANN, FATHER: From the minute we
discovered Madeleine missing, and the police were called very early on, we alerted them, you know, almost immediately.
Police arrived, and a team of detectives was assembled just before midnight. Along with resort guests, authorities searched
throughout the night. At that point, police believed Madeleine had been kidnapped. They did not secure the apartment.
HILL, OCEAN CLUB MANAGER: We tried to do a strategic search from the right-hand side of the village across through to the
TUCHMAN: But there was no sign of missing Madeleine.
KATE MCCANN: Please, please, do not hurt her. Please
don`t scare her. Please tell us where to find her or put her in a place of safety and let somebody know where she is. We beg
you to let Madeleine come home.
TUCHMAN: Nearly five months later, Madeleine is still not home. Her story has captured
the world`s attention, even a papal blessing, and now authorities say she may have been killed and have named her parents
as suspects. The McCann family says the parents are being framed, the victims of a bungled investigation. Portuguese police
won`t comment. And now billionaire Richard Branson has joined the fray, offering 100,000 pounds to help cover their legal
Rumors are rampant, facts scarce. Those final hours of May 3 remain a mystery, except to the person or persons
who harmed Madeleine McCann.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, Praia da Luz, Portugal.
us right now from "America`s Most Wanted," Michelle Sigona. Michelle, what`s the latest on baby Maddy?
"AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, the latest on little Madeleine is that she`s still missing, Nancy, unfortunately. It`s been
more than 150 days at this point. Kate and Gerry McCann are still suspects. They will remain suspects in Portugal for a matter
-- all the way up to eight months. Also, Robert Murat, someone who was looked at early on in the investigation, is still considered
a suspect in this particular case. Madeleine is still missing.
There`s also a maid at the resort, Nancy, who has not
been identified. Apparently, this maid is a disgruntled person, someone who had left the resort area. Investigators are still
trying to track her down. In addition, Nancy, the main -- the lead investigator has actually -- he`s been taken out of this
case. And the second person in charge of this investigation, he has actually stepped down himself, requesting a leave of absence
at this point.
GRACE: Do we know why he wants off the case?
SIGONA: Not too sure. Investigators are keeping
pretty mum about that, unfortunately, at this point. But you know, it does have to do most likely a lot with Kate and Gerry
and the British police and the fact that the lead investigator has stepped down...
and has said a lot of...
SIGONA: ... you know, interesting things...
GRACE: Michelle, Michelle...
... about that. Yes?
GRACE: I`m running out of fingers. I guess I`ve got to go to toes as to how many different theories
Portugal police have come up with about the disappearance of baby Maddy. I strongly suspect that you`ve left one of the theories
out. Isn`t there a new theory that police have said maybe baby Maddy fell down the steps...
... and the parents found her and then buried her body, which makes absolutely makes no sense?
SIGONA: That is definitely
a theory. And the grandmother actually spoke out earlier last week and said, you know, little Maddy must have been drugged.
You know, There`s no other way that she would have fell down the steps.
GRACE: Whoa! Who said that? Who said that?
Apparently, this is her grandmother that stepped out and made a comment to reporters and to investigators and said that, you
know, little Madeleine may have been drugged. I don`t think she realized, you know, that in a negative context of, you know,
her son or her daughter actually going in and drugging little Madeleine, but that is...
GRACE: Was it...
... another theory.
GRACE: ... maternal or paternal grandmother?
SIGONA: I do not know. I do not know, Nancy.
Thanks, Grandma. OK, with all these theories floating around, Michelle Sigona, how can we take any of them seriously? And
I want to hear more about the maid. Disgruntled? That`s a reason to kidnap a little baby?
SIGONA: Absolutely not. And
again, this is just another one of investigators` theories at this point. This is just another person that they have not reached
out to 150 days into the investigation, that they have not been able to identify.
And again, I do want to say that
in this country, these kind of cases don`t happen. And in Portugal, they don`t have Amber Alerts. They don`t have the National
Center for Missing and Exploited Children. They don`t have the resources that we have here. But they`re working to get those
kind of things in place.
GRACE: You know, frankly, Michelle Sigona, as much as you seem to be making excuses for them,
I don`t think the Portuguese police could find the killer or the kidnapper if they jumped up and bit them on the neck. Thank
SIGONA: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Madeleine McCann is still
alive, her abductor may well be watching news reports like this one. So today, her parents spoke directly to that person.
MCCANN: Madeleine is a beautiful, bright, funny and caring little girl. She is so special. Please, please do not hurt her.
Please don`t scare her. Please tell us where to find her or put her in a place of safety and let somebody know where she is.
We beg you to let Madeleine come home. We need our Madeleine. Sean and Amelie need Madeleine, and Madeleine needs us. Please
give our little girl back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The strain they are under is unimaginable, worse perhaps because of growing
fears that this was a planned abduction. If so, then these pictures of police on the Spanish border are deeply worrying. The
officers are supposed to be checking vehicles leaving Portugal. Instead, for 40 minutes, they sit in their own cars out of
the rain. A van with blacked-out windows drives by. This was filmed by ITV News just 48 hours after Madeleine went missing.
Even after the rain stops, the officers stood by the side of the road chatting before finally resuming their checks.
local mayor told me he rejects any criticism of the police.
Do you believe that the police have done enough, are doing
enough to catch whoever this is?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no doubt about that. All the police, all our criminal police
is involved in this affair. We don`t see them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But he says they are working tirelessly, searching
for Gerry and Katie`s (SIC) daughter, looking for her abductor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: When we come back: Is
the police case against the parents of 3-year-old baby Maddy crumbling?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALE: This is an on-the-record comment from the spokesman for the public prosecutor`s office. What we asked her was, What
are Kate and Gerry McCann accused of? And she gave this response. It`s not possible to give you that information because they
have not been charged yet. And furthermore, she said, there are going to be new investigations which will let us know which
crime has been committed.
Now, I think we can interpret that in this way: Police may have theories about what happened,
but they need more evidence. And you know, I think we have to assume that one possibility is that there won`t be charges at
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Three-year-old Maddy McCann vanishes on a luxury resort vacation, her parents at
dinner a full football-field-length away. After months pass with no answers, police accused of bungling the investigation,
and suddenly Maddy`s own mom and dad officially emerge as suspects. But it`s not long before questions emerge again about
the police`s own investigation.
Now, according to UK reports, police say DNA evidence found in the McCann rental car
is not 100 percent match to baby Maddy. Also, prosecutors claim without a body, there will be no conviction.
RANDY KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Whistles and boos greeted Kate McCann as she entered a Portuguese
police station for a second straight day of questioning. Her husband, Gerry, followed a short time later for his latest official
We can confirm both are no longer witnesses in the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine, they are
suspects. It is a stunning turn of events in a mystery that has made headlines around the world.
According to a family
spokeswoman, police found traces of Madeleine`s blood on a car the family rented more than three weeks after the toddler was
reported missing. There`s more. Gerry`s sister delivered a bombshell of her own, claiming Kate was offered a plea deal.
FEMALE: Part of it is that they`re trying to get Kate to admit to having accidentally killed Madeleine and disposed of her
body, hidden and disposed of her body, which is complete nonsense. It has no factual basis whatsoever.
KAYE: In exchange
for pleading guilty, McCanns family says Kate would serve two years or less in prison. Kate and Gerry have not been charged
with any crime and maintain their innocence. The allegations have shocked Kate`s mother, who says her daughter is being framed.
HEALY, MADELEINE`S GRANDMOTHER: She knows perfectly well that if this evidence exists, then it is proof that somebody inside
either the police department or who`s had access to their apartment and their belongings who`s planted this evidence.
Kate and her husband, Gerry, have never wavered from their assertion that Madeleine was kidnapped. The British couple, who
are both doctors, took Madeleine and her 2-year-old twin sister and brother on a vacation to a resort in Portugal. On the
night of May 3, they said they left the children sleeping in one bed to have dinner at a poolside tapas restaurant about 300
feet away. When they returned, Kate checked on the children to find Madeleine gone, with the window open.
Please, please do not hurt her. Please don`t scare her. Please tell us where to find her.
KAYE: Police searched the
resort and surrounding area. They followed numerous leads. One British national who was staying near the hotel was named a
suspect, but no charges have been filed against him.
The McCanns` please for help have led to press conferences across
Europe. They`ve also traveled to the U.S. and had a private meeting with the pope. The case has also attracted a celebrity
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you have seen this little girl, please, could you go to your local authorities or
police and give any information that you have?
KAYE: All along, the McCanns have never been under a cloud of suspicion
Randy Kaye, CNN, New York.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C.
POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, the Portuguese police are now saying that Madeleine McCann may have fallen down
the stairs and hit her head, and then her parents and their friends who they were having dinner with may have gotten rid of
But this is just another theory in a number of theories since she disappeared on May 3 that the Portuguese
police have said. And also, one of the main up-front investigators who sometimes talks to the media about the case, he`s been
taken off of this case.
So I mean, since the beginning, I`ve said, Nancy, that it looks like that the Portuguese investigators
have bungled this from the very, very beginning. Now, apparently, this investigator was taken off the case. He said that the
British police were siding with Kate and Gerry McCann. So he was criticizing the British police, who were also conducting
investigation along with the Portuguese. So who knows?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
know -- Paula Hancocks joining us from Portugal, CNN correspondent -- it seem to me that the Portuguese police have an ego
problem. Scotland Yard, apparently, we now learn, offered to come in and help with the case. Who would turn down Scotland
Yard? They didn`t even call them back, apparently.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly could be the
case that Scotland Yard would have offered this help. In Britain, it`s not unusual if a case after a few weeks appears to
be floundering, there doesn`t appear to be too much evidence or too much progress being made, then another force will offer
help, a fresh set of eyes, if you like. So it is certainly possible that the metropolitan police, a very well respected police
force, will have offered help to the Portuguese police.
But the fact is, Madeleine disappeared on Portuguese territory.
It is not the territory of the metropolitan police. So it`s not beyond the realms of expectation that they would have offered
but certainly wouldn`t have been expected that they would have had to accept the metropolitan`s offer.
GRACE: At least
call back, for Pete`s sake!
(END VIDEOTAPE) (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four months
after his daughter Madeleine`s disappearance, it is Gerry McCann, the girl`s father, who points out his wife had only been
interviewed by police once before. It`s not that he is questioning his wife. He strongly denies Kate had anything to do with
their daughter`s disappearance. At issue is why Portuguese police didn`t interview Kate McCann more thoroughly earlier on.
And U.S. experts agree, saying that would have been standard procedure.
ERNIE ALLEN, PRES., NATIONAL CTR FOR MISSING
AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: It is surprising. And certainly, in this country, one of the first things that law enforcement would
do is question the parents, question those who are around the children.
SNOW: Take the case of Polly Klaas, who was
abducted from her home in 1993 and was found dead months later. Her father, Marc, says he and other family members were questioned
by police and cleared within a week of Polly`s disappearance.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: We took polygraph
exams, we answered all their questions until they were satisfied that we had nothing to do with it, and then they moved on.
Critics, including the McCanns, have questioned the way the police in the small resort town of Portugal where Madeleine disappeared
have handled the case throughout. The hotel room where the McCanns stayed, for example, was not immediately secured after
the McCanns vacated. John Walsh, who has become an advocate for missing children after his own son disappeared, calls the
case a nightmare.
JOHN WALSH, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": This police agency, this small agency -- and I`m a big supporter
of law enforcement -- has made mistake after mistake, not taking DNA, not securing this crime scene, not asking for international
help. When you`re in trouble and you`re a small agency, you ask for help -- Scotland Yard, other agencies within Portugal.
(on camera): Portuguese police eventually did ask for help. British search dogs were brought in and found traces of blood
that were later tested in Britain. As for the Portuguese police, they`re remaining silent and not commenting on this case
as the investigation continues.
Mary Snow, CNN, New York.
You know, initially, we heard about DNA evidence found in the rental car, in the boot or the trunk of the car, underneath
the rug, but we haven`t heard anything more about this. And when they went back to the great -- went back to Great Britain,
Kate and Gerry were supposed to be interviewed again by the British authorities. They haven`t been.
So who knows where
this investigation is. You know, it`s been going on since May 3, and it`s just right now -- it`s up in the air. Now, there
was another theory that came along, too, that an employee, a disgruntled employee of the Ocean Club, this glamorous club where
they were staying, may have taken Madeleine McCann. But that was a tip, and they`re running that out, so that doesn`t look
like it`s going anywhere, either.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALE: With barely a look up at the cameras, Kate McCann emerged, officially now a suspect in the disappearance of her own
daughter. She had been told at noon that she was no longer considered just a witness, vastly increasing the psychological
pressure on her.
Kate had arrived here looking visibly exhausted and emotionally drained. There were some whistles
from the crowd but also a few shouts of support. Those closest to her are adamant she is innocent, but they acknowledge the
shocking possibility that the police may soon charge Kate with Madeleine`s death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s horrified
by it, absolutely horrified. And she hopes and prays that Madeleine`s still alive and she sincerely wants to be reunited --
you know, she wants her daughter back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outside the police station, a large crowd has gathered. Interest
here is extraordinarily high, people expressing divided views. But some British tourists are here to offer support.
did you shout as she went in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We support you, Kate. All of Britain supports her, I think.
MALE: Then it was Gerry McCann`s turn to arrive for police questioning. He appeared astonishingly composed, given the pressure
on both him and his wife. Kate, remember, had been questioned yesterday until 1:00 in the morning. It had lasted 11 grueling
hours, and now we know what Kate had been confronted with. There were five people in the room, Kate McCann with her two lawyers,
and opposite them, two Portuguese detectives. At one point, the detectives said Madeleine`s blood had been found in Gerry
and Kate`s hire car. Kate expressed outrage. She swore at the investigators and said the implication was ludicrous, and she
pointed out the car was rented 25 days after Madeleine`s disappearance.
A number of cars had been taken away and tested
by forensic experts, including Renault Scenic (ph) the couple had rented in late May. For many weeks, Gerry and Kate have
dealt with media rumors that they may have been involved. Under a month ago, I asked the McCanns if they`d always been honest
GERRY MCCANN: We have left absolutely nothing out that we have known about at any point and...
MCCANN: We just want Madeleine back. You know, we will do anything to cooperate with the police to get Madeleine back.
MALE: Now the McCanns are under scrutiny like never before, facing a personal and legal nightmare, and everyone here is left
wondering about the strength of the forensic evidence that has produced such a stunning development in the case.
More (ph), ITV News in Portimao.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Maddy was found
today, one thing you can do is certainly try to identify injuries. And the identification of injuries is primarily going to
be skeletal. You`re going to be interested in, say, fractures of bones, fractures of skull. And at this point, you would want
to have a forensic anthropologist examine the skeletal structures to try to find injury. Now, another thing that you can do,
certainly, is toxicology. You can obtain, say, some muscle and provide that to a toxicologist and get an idea of what drugs,
if any, are present in Maddy`s system.
GRACE: Three-year-old little
baby Maddy reportedly snatched during a luxury resort vacation, little girl missing 150 days. That`s right: 1-5- 0. Then,
a grainy photo emerges of a toddler girl, features eerily similar to baby Maddy. The snapshot taken a few hundred miles from
the McCann`s luxury resort. But is the toddler girl baby Maddy?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL DAVIES, ITV NEWS CORRESPONDENT
(voice-over): It all began when a Spanish tourist stopped to take this photograph of what appeared to be a family group on
the road to Tangiers. It immediately struck the holidaymaker that the little light-skinned blonde girl being carried on a
woman`s back looked out of place with the rest of the party. She even wondered, "Could it possibly be Madeleine McCann?"
Torres say she and her partner asked each other, could they have found the missing British girl, and dismissed the idea as
impossible. She told reporters it was only after returning from holiday she read about other possible sightings of Madeleine
in Morocco and realized her camera might hold invaluable evidence. Her photographs have now been sent to Interpol. The latest
technology will compare them with the most recent pictures of Madeleine.
MICHAEL BROMBY, FACE RECOGNITION EXPERT: My
first thoughts are, it`s quite a poor image. The larger image that we see has lots of other people, large scenery in the background.
And when the image is zoomed in to what`s suspected to be Madeleine, we found that the graininess and the very poor quality
of the image, we can`t really see an awful lot of detail. So from an expert`s point of view, it`s difficult to see features
such as the eyes, the nose and the mouth to be able to make any kind of measurements or any kind of observations of how unique
that picture is.
DAVIES: Even before this latest possible sighting, Kate and Gerry McCann had traveled to Morocco searching
for their daughter. There had been several alleged sightings there. On May the 9th, there were two apparent sightings in Marrakech,
one at a petrol station, the other at a hotel. In late May, a woman claimed to have seen Madeleine in the north of the country
in Zao (ph).
The latest picture was taken on August the 31st, just south of Tangiers in Zinat. The McCanns have been
here before. They`ll be waiting to see where this latest development leads before responding to it and any impact it might
have on their own status in the Portuguese police investigation.
Paul Davies, ITV News.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Is this picture baby Maddy? And not only that, is the police case against Maddy`s parents crumbling? The Portuguese police
now backing off, back-paddling.
I want it go out to Jerry Lawton, chief reporter with the "Daily Star." Tell me about
this photo, Jerry.
JERRY LAWTON, REPORTER: It`s quite dramatic, to be honest, Nancy. What happened, we`ve got a Spanish
holiday maker, a tourist in Morocco. She`s taking some pictures on an isolated remote mountain trail in the north of the region,
and when she looks at the photos, she sees a blonde, fair-skinned girl being carried on the back of an Arab woman among a
group of Arab-looking family. She`s suspicious because she instantly looks at the girl and thinks that could be Madeleine
GRACE: We`re taking a look at it right now, Jerry. With us, Jerry Lawton from the "Daily Star." What have we
learned so far?
LAWTON: Well, what we`ve learned so far, the development has been quite dramatic. Immediately, investigators
dash to a remote mountain region called Zinat in the north of Morocco, very isolated, olive trees, very few TVs, radio, a
remote region of transients, largely. Astonishingly, this family is tracked down, and the heartbreaking news for Madeleine
McCann`s parents is that the daughter is, in fact, the daughter of an olive farmer. She`s a 5-year-old girl, and she does
not bear the distinctive trait of a flaw in her right eye that Madeleine bears.
GRACE: What flaw is that?
She has a flaw in her right eye, which basically is a -- what is commonly known as a leaking iris or a cat eye syndrome. It`s
quite distinctive, and it`s formed the basis, really, of the entire hunt for Madeleine McCann. They`ve built an entire poster
network around it, on the basis that many, many girls of that age who are blonde can look the same, but this flaw is quite
rare and is a distinctive flaw that you would notice when you looked directly into Madeleine`s eyes. And it`s on that basis
that the identity has been proved.
GRACE: Out to a special guest joining us, Clarence Mitchell. This is the McCann
Mr. Mitchell, thank you for being with us. What was the family reaction when they just -- when
they first heard about this photo that looks startlingly similar to baby Maddy?
CLARENCE MITCHELL, MCCANN FAMILY SPOKESPERSON:
Nancy, it`s good to be with you. Yes, unfortunately, we`ve been down this road several times before. There have been other
sightings of Madeleine in Morocco and, indeed, in other countries.
Every time, Kate and Gerry are obviously extremely
interested to get to the bottom of each sighting. They want to know more than anybody else in the world if it`s their daughter.
But each time, hopes have been dashed. And, you know, they just have to pick themselves up and get on with it again and refocus
their efforts into finding Madeleine and urging everybody around the world who`s aware of their case to keep their eyes open
and report it to the authorities. Any sighting could be valuable. And they keep going through all of these emotional ups and
downs that they suffer every time there`s a setback like this.
GRACE: I can`t even imagine what it would be like to
think you`ve finally found your child only to learn that the photo may not be legit. With me, Clarence Mitchell, McCann family
And also, Mr. Mitchell, we are hearing now the complete opposite of what we were told a couple of weeks
ago. Now we`re hearing the police bore down on Mrs. McCann to try to get a confession because they`re basically out of ideas.
Well, I can`t actually comment on the details of the investigation. It`s still an active case in Portugal. And Gerry and Kate
are not allowed to speak out, and by extension nor am I. But essentially, yes, the investigation took that turn, and both
parents were declared suspects, or arguido, as the Portuguese call it, which means they haven`t been charged, they`re not
formally accused of a crime yet, but it means the police are suspicious of them.
But Kate and Gerry can wholly explain
anything the police may have found, any evidence the police may have found in their apartment or their vehicle, and there
are wholly innocent reasons, and they will defend themselves in court if it comes to charges. But I`m hopeful that it won`t.
Mr. Mitchell, I pray that you are right. I pray that you are right, because when I look at Maddy`s parents, I do not want
to believe they had anything to do with this.
GRACE: After over 14 hours
of intense police interrogation about their girl`s disappearance, Kate and Gerry McCann return to England, home, as suspects.
Baby Maddy`s parents deny involvement and then re-launch a massive campaign to find their girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHANG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kate and Gerry McCann fight back, giving their first interview since being named as suspects in
their daughter`s disappearance. They told select British newspapers DNA reportedly found in the trunk of their hired car can
be easily explained. That`s where they threw a pair of Madeleine`s unwashed pajamas and the twins` dirty diapers when they
moved apartments in Praia da Luz. And their spokesperson said there are a number of other possibilities.
As many as 30, even more, people had contact with that vehicle during the period it was hired. Not just the McCanns, they
were picking up family, friends, and members of the family from the airport, other campaign workers were in it. I drove around
CHANG: The Portuguese police are said to have found at least two samples of DNA in the car that could be Madeleine`s.
MARTIN, NOTTINGHAM UNIVERSITY: Where you have mixing of samples, biological samples, by fluids or whatever between different
family members, that makes the picture much more complicated. So, inevitably, even if Madeleine had not been in the car, if
the twins had been in the car and you took a DNA sample, you would expect to get at least partial match because they`re genetically
CHANG: Dr. Paul Martin, a DNA expert who has no connection to this case, also says any samples collected could
have easily been contaminated.
MARTIN: I think the evidence has to be treated extremely cautiously. And I think most
people working in this area would say that conviction by DNA evidence alone is insufficient. So there has to be other evidence
to support the case. DNA is just part of the process, of the investigation and conviction.
CHANG: And the investigation
continues, as does media coverage around the clock.
Kate and Gerry McCann also told British newspapers they talk about
Madeleine all the time. In fact, the twins often ask about her. They simply tell them she isn`t here at the moment, but they
remain surrounded by her toys, her other belongings, and photographs as each day passes without her.
Emily Chang, CNN,
in Rothley, England.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Ed Miller, weigh in. Why did they claim they suspected the McCanns?
MILLER, REPORTER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, very good question, especially since it happened so very late after the investigation.
You know this. In any investigation, you always look at the people who are closest first. So why would they look at them way
after the fact? The only matter -- the only question that you can say is Portuguese police blew it from the very beginning
and were just looking for someone to blame.
GRACE: Yes, parents have dig in. They`re always the first suspects. Very
quickly, Jeff Gardere. What do you make -- your analysis of the parents` public pleas for help?
GARDERE: Well, I think
that the parents are very genuine in what they`re doing, and this is the way that they have to keep their lives going, keep
the hope going, by keeping everyone else involved, and keeping this child`s memory alive, even if something serious has happened
to her that we may not know exactly what it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):
Before Madeleine McCann went missing, her family lived a quiet, ordinary life here, about 2 1/2 hours north of London. We
came here to the village of Rothley, England, to learn more about Madeleine McCann`s parents. We wanted to know what life
was like for them before they started making headlines around the world, before British celebrities started pleading for the
safe return of their daughter, before they met with the pope.
We came here to ask a very simple question: What can
you tell us about Kate and Gerry McCann?
NICKY GILL, KATE MCCANN`S BEST FRIEND: They`re extremely good for each other.
They bounce off each other. They`re excellent parents. They`ve formed a really good family unit. They balance each other really
well, actually. They`re the two sides of a coin. They really are.
KAYE: Nicky Gill and Linda McQueen grew up with Kate
McCann. Nikki is her best friend.
What is it that you think that people should know about Kate and Gerry McCann?
For me, it`s that the two special people who love the children dearly. They would not harm a single hair on their heads. They
just want them back.
KAYE: Both women say Kate wanted five children but needed in-vitro fertilization.
Whatever they needed to do, they were prepared to go the whole way to have a baby and to have a family. And it was just crucial
KAYE (voice-over): Much of the storm around this story began when tabloid newspapers published what they say
are bits and pieces of Kate`s diary, painting a very different picture of Kate. CNN has not independently confirmed these
reports. The papers say Kate was a frustrated mother who described her children as "hysterical," "hyperactive," "difficult
to control," adding Madeleine`s excessive energy "exhausts" her.
(on screen): Was Kate overwhelmed by the children,
as this report about the diary suggests?
LINDA MCQUEEN, FRIEND OF THE MCCANN FAMILY: Overwhelmed by the children? No.
No. She just loves the children. And like I said before, she`s a mom that goes and takes it all in stride. She`s not -- to
listen to her with them, she`s so calm and, "Yes, it`s fine." There`s no air of anything negative about her.
"Flash," a Portuguese magazine, says Kate McCann told them the first six months of Maddy`s life were very difficult. "She
cried practically for 18 hours a day. I had to permanently carry her around."
The magazine reports, after the twins
were born, Kate says Madeleine started to demand lots of attention. "She`d run up and down screaming in the background shouting
for my attention." A spokesperson for the McCanns confirms Kate was interviewed by the magazine, but denies she complained
about Madeleine being colicky or demanding attention.
(on screen): Are Kate and Gerry McCann negligent when it comes
to their children?
MCQUEEN: Not at all. No. Not at all. It couldn`t be further from the truth. It really couldn`t.
They`re really strong, caring parents.
KAYE: Kate and Gerry met studying medicine in Glasgow, where Gerry grew up.
When Kate took a job in New Zealand, Gerry followed.
MCQUEEN: I think he went to the pub one night and said, "I`ve
met the girl of my dreams."
KAYE: The couple married in Kate`s hometown of Liverpool at this church in 1998. In 2003,
Madeleine was born. Then came the twins. The family settled in Rothley. Kate worked part-time as a general practitioner so
she could be home more.
DR. DOUG SKEHAN, GERRY MCCANN`S BOSS: One has to say they have everything that you would want
for, and suddenly everything has turned into a nightmare.
KAYE: Madeleine`s great uncle says this is not the first
time the couple has dealt with hard times. Both come from working-class families.
BRIAN KENNEDY, MADELEINE`S GREAT
UNCLE: Sometimes people automatically assume, because you have two doctors, they must be quite well-off and wealthy. It`s
been a long struggle for them to get where they are now. And just as life was looking good, this sort of thing happens.
Their home in Rothley is a fortress now. Police block the street. Reporters wait on their every move. All Kate and Gerry want,
those closest to them say, is for the focus to return to finding Madeleine.
GILL: They are heartbroken. Their little
girl is gone, and we`ve still got no answers as to where she is.
KAYE: No answers as to what happened to her either,
until somebody starts talking.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Rothley, England.
GRACE: Marc Klaas,
you have been in this spot before, but unlike many people, Marc Klaas, when his daughter, Polly, went missing, he said, "Here
I am. Question me, polygraph me, take my blood, take my hair, check my apartment, check my car, please, and then go find the
real perpetrator." You know, there may be a million reasons why she would not want to take a plea, if, in fact, she`s responsible,
KLAAS: Well, that`s very true. And I think what I`d like to point out here is that this investigation was so
bungled, they not only had no protocols, but they apparently had no clue as to how to investigate a kidnapping case, because
they seemed to pay very little attention to the family until many months later. And in the United States, 78 percent of all
abductions are family abductions, so that`s where they should have looked. They should have done their questioning. They should
have done their polygraphy. They should have been able to deal with this and not have to go back and engage in all of this
nonsense right now.
Mrs. McCann is in a situation where she is not going to admit guilt. The entire world is looking
at her. And if she had done something, the time would have been at the beginning.
GRACE: Excellent thought, Marc Klaas.
But if that DNA really has turned up in the trunk, they`re in a lot of hot water.
Out to Emily Chang in Rothley, England.
None of these guests that had dinner with the McCanns can place Maddy at any time that evening. Nobody saw Maddy alive? What
time was the last time Maddy was seen alive by anybody other than the parents?
CHANG: Well, the last time Maddy was
seen alive was about 2 1/2 hours before the McCanns went to dinner. And their account of what happened hangs on the accounts
of about seven friends that they were having dinner with. And all of those friends have come out publicly supporting them,
the McCanns, proclaiming their innocence. However, not all of them have -- we don`t know exactly what they`ve said to police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over the last 100 days has been trying to increase the chances of finding Madeleine,
and we don`t know of any specific evidence which has changed the belief that we had that there was a reasonable chance Madeleine
is still alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the
Portuguese police are wanting them back, then Kate and Gerry McCann have said they will go back. That is a guarantee they
gave before leaving Portugal. And they remain -- make no mistake about it -- in a very, very precarious legal situation. They
could be charged within days. It`s just not at all clear, and the ball is now very firmly in the court of the Portuguese detectives.
GRACE: A beautiful 4-year-old baby girl goes missing from a luxury resort hotel while her parents are at
a dinner party. Where is baby Maddy?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the search for Madeleine in the
area surrounding her disappearance is being scaled down, then where is its emphasis now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up here
you`re reminded of how easy it would be for an abductor to hide away a little girl amongst the apartments and the holiday
home and how difficult it would be to find her. The search would have to be fast-moving and methodical. Now, if the hunt for
Madeleine has been like that, it`s been far from obvious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police may have theories about what happened,
but they need more evidence. And, you know, I think we have to assume that one possibility is that there won`t be charges
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this baby girl Madeleine McCann or just another false alarm?
We saw this group of people. We took some photos, but as soon as we took them, we saw a blonde, blonde girl who caught our
eye. We both looked at each other; we thought of Madeleine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The case of mistaken identity raises
the hopes of a nation. But just as quickly as the photo surfaces, hope may be fleeting.
GERRY MCCANN, FATHER OF MISSING
CHILD: A little girl called Maddy was taken from a family hotel room. As I`m sure you understand, we need to do everything
possible to help the police with their inquiries in finding her. If you have seen this little girl, please could you go to
your local authorities or police and give any information that you have, any genuine information that you have. Please, please
help us. Thank you.
to Nigel at